Weekend Favs April 12th

John Jantsch ( 00: 00.92 )

Hello and welcome to the newest season of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My host now is Margie Warrell. Dr. Margie Warrell is a leading figure on management, fortitude, and navigating danger in organizations as diverse as Fortune 500 newsrooms and the US Congress. Bestselling artist, speaker and trainer, she empowers people to make strong choices. Additionally, she hosts The Life Brave Live, a program similar to this.

That go. I’ll get it correctly. Podcast Life brave. We’re going to talk about her sixth guide now, the fortitude space, five steps to better activity. Thus, Margie, welcome to the program. But are you living in Australia? No, you didn’t get. It do.

Margie Warrell ( 00: 38.333 )

John, it’s wonderful to be with you.

Margie Warrell ( 00: 43.038 )

No, I am living on the same terra firma as you. I really reside in North Virginia, north of Washington, DC.

John Jantsch ( 00: 50.711 )

Okay, I was going to suggest that doing a podcast in Australia right now would be a terrible hours. Yes. But let’s start with the with the title of the book, The Courage Gap. What is it?

Margie Warrell ( 00: 53.696 )

It would be at 5 a.m.

Margie Warrell ( 01: 04.804 )

Yeah, also, John, have you ever had one of those days where you knew there was something you really do? Like you knew you had to have a dialogue, you knew you needed to change, and you needed to remove one from a position, or you didn’t, and you waited, you waited, you waited, you waited, you waited, and you rationalized, and I may see you nodding. Well, you know, it is not a lack of awareness that creates that space between

John Jantsch ( 01: 24.494 )

Yeah, of training. Who has it?

Margie Warrell ( 01: 32.936 )

between what we should do and what we do. Our concern is causing a distance that has grown, and it is due to a lack of courage. What will happen? What if this man gets upset? What if I make a mistake? What if I lose income? What if I make a mistake? What if it’s actually ugly and unpleasant and there’s a big consequences? What did people say? Suppose I refuse. And so our worry creates the space between the actions we’re fully capable of taking, holding somebody to consideration.

You know, getting rid of someone out of your life because they don’t match, etc. Et alia. Having a tough talk with your co-owner and what we really do. And it takes confidence to close that gap. However, as I argue at the beginning of the text, when we don’t take those risks, make the change, take the chance, speak up, etc., we really become more prone to worse outcomes over time.

So the distress we’re trying to protect ourselves, the issue we’re trying to avoid, we actually end up suffering means more over time and end up in a worse position. And that’s why, John, most people will declare, hey, who these can often lament taking too long to do a difficult task when I speak to them and I do a lot of speaking and running plans? And most folks go, sure, sure, yep.

John Jantsch ( 02: 54.766 )

Yes. You know, I’ve, I’ve really been in business 30 years. And but a couple of things I’ve learned over the years are that you occasionally like go through that fear and take action. And basically what happened was means less worse than you thought it was going to be straight. And you, began bank that, but then there are also been occasions when I’ve paused and that was the right thing to do also. So how do you sort of like to tell the difference between a geopolitical pause and fear-based procrastination?

Margie Warrell ( 03: 24.198 )

Yes, I do believe a wait can be very clever. That is just before plowing ahead, stepping back, really re-grounding for a minute in like, okay, what’s going on here? Where are my feelings getting away with me? And I think that acknowledging the distinction between being brave and courageous and being foolish and foolish, aggressive and responsive.

I’m talking about considered behavior. And I believe what you’re saying is that there are times when you’re referring to boredom, but I’d say it’s not. You’re no, know, oh, it’s all too difficult. It’s basically saying, I’m just gonna simply stop for a minute and consider things carefully. I’m going to try to get the thoughts out of this. And as honestly as I is, think through the pros and cons short name and

far-term of various actions that are in line with my principles. What feels appropriate for me? What has dignity these? What traits best describe the type of president, company owner I want to be? Okay, then I’m going to move ahead. And there is thus a different distinction. And I think practicing a wait is a lot of energy in a delay. And I really think that when we can stop the active doing, doing, doing,

John Jantsch ( 04: 46. 296 )

Yeah, yeah.

Margie Warrell ( 04: 51.072 )

and communicate to who we’re being, which let’s face it, a lot of business owners actually do. It really large marks the actions we take. It’s like, oh, this is what I need to accomplish. It really can help us be much more effective than just occasionally scurrying fiercely and going in circles.

John Jantsch ( 05: 08.327 )

So I’m going to probably wade into dangerous territory here. We’re going to talk about courage, you’re right. Is there a difference in this gap between men and women, whether it is real or perceived? I’m a white male born in America. I believe I have a right to everything. So why would I have imposter syndrome, right? I’m being somewhat facetious, but not.

Margie Warrell ( 05: 11. 774 )

Okay, let’s go. Let’s leave now. And we’re talking about courage.

you

Margie Warrell ( 05: 24.008 )

Yes.

John Jantsch ( 05: 37.038 )

Is it much harder, say, for a woman to particularly, or somebody who doesn’t have the advantages that feels like that imposter syndrome is because they’re like, do I belong here?

Margie Warrell ( 51.838 ) 05:

Yes, there is absolutely a difference, gendered difference in our experience of our circumstances, of ourselves, of our ability to navigate risk, what might feel risky. And let me just start by saying that this concept of courage, one, yes, it’s a trait. Some people have a higher risk tolerance after giving birth naturally.

John Jantsch ( 06: 09.934 )

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell ( 20.464 )

than others. And yes, there’s even there’s a gender element to that too. I remember my sons saying to them,” Mom, look, no hands riding their bike down a hill,” but my daughter never did that. But yes, I mean, I’m generalizing, but I think there’s some truth to that. More so than women, men enjoy sticking out at high adrenaline-producing activities. So I think part of that might be nature, part of it nurture, we’re not going to debate that. But recognizing courage isn’t just choosing to take action in the presence of fear.

It also controls our fear, according to us. And often we have more fear than we need to have. We now perceive risk more clearly. I could never do that. my God, that would be just terrifying. And you can do it in fact. And it’s as only as terrifying as you’re making it to be like to start a business, to expand into a new market, to…

John Jantsch ( 06: 55. 926 )

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch ( 07: 07.79 )

you

Margie Warrell ( 07: 12.34 )

hold someone accountable, etc. And as you said before, sometimes we lay awake in bed, I’ll let this person go, I gotta hold them accountable. Then we go about doing it; I should have just done it. But for women, and speaking as a woman, and I grew up in Australia, where I think there’s also a cultural difference in Australia as well to the USA, but I think women, partially because of our social conditioning, do struggle more with self-doubt.

Do second guess themselves more. not frequently feel as motivated to put themselves out there and wing it. I’ve seen a lot of men going, hey, let’s just try this. I’m just going to wing it and fumble through and mess up a few times because I don’t know what I’m doing. And when I do, I’ll just go, yeah, whatever, learn something, move on. Women, we ruminate, we second guess, we beat ourselves up when we don’t do things perfectly.

John Jantsch ( 07 :40.94 )

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch ( 07: 57.846 )

you

John Jantsch ( 08: 06.562 )

Well, or let’s let’s be honest, sometimes you don’t get a second chance. You know, where is just what you said, you know, so there’s this fear of like, can’t screw up.

Margie Warrell ( 8: 11 / 49 )

and s-

Margie Warrell ( 8: 58 )

Yeah, and that’s true. Women are judged more harshly when they don’t get things right. You are aware of the phenomenon known as the “glass cliff phenomenon,” etc. But I also think as women, we can sometimes unwittingly internalize misogyny. as if we are prejudiced against ourselves. We judge ourselves more harshly. We also judge other women more harshly. This is actually supported by a lot of data. Women are harder on other women.

John Jantsch ( 08: 36. 999 )

Interesting.

Margie Warrell ( 08: 45.542 )

So there was a great experiment out of Columbia, the Heidi Howard experiment, where they were looking at the CVs, they were exactly the same. And some of them had the names Heidi and Howard, which were the exact same words. And when people were looking at it, would you want to employ this one or this one? They were also described as ambitious and competitive. When it was Howard, like, yeah, he sounds like a good guy to have on the team. When it was Heidi, it’s like, I don’t want to have her, ambitious and competitive. So simply acknowledging that we can be difficult on ourselves.

And so I think I have done a lot of work with women, business owners, women leaders, entrepreneurs over the years. And I discussed this in my previous book, You’ve Got This. I’ve had to say so many times, you’ve got this, go for it, back yourself, take the risk. Don’t wait until you know exactly what you’re doing. Don’t wait until you’re completely confident; just do it and allow yourself to figure it out as you go along.

And I really have to, I don’t have to say that as much to men.

John Jantsch ( 09: 46. 594 )

Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m glad we went there. That was obviously off the mark. No, no, no, no.

Margie Warrell ( 9: 49.376 )

And that’s not critical, by the way, that is not critical of men. I’m often like, just do more of what he does because hey, it’s working for him.

John Jantsch ( 09: 58.476 )

Yes. Yes. Yes. So, so let me, let me, let me go straight to a topic I hear all the time. I mean, a very specific courage gap. I work with a lot of marketing consultants, marketing agencies. We provide training and give them permission to use our methods. And one of the things I have to work on the most right from the beginning is getting them to understand they need to raise their prices. and that’s one that a lot of businesses, you know, they sit in front of a client and they’re like, will they

Amy, what can I say? And sometimes I just say, look, just do it. Similar to when you make a sale, it’s called double your price and you can just say it and see what happens next. Like what could happen, right? They could say no, or they, or you got a really high paying client and boy do they struggle.

Margie Warrell ( 10: 43. 328 )

Do you notice a gender difference?

John Jantsch ( 10: 45. 326 )

Not as much as you’d think, actually, in that. But again, and we do, mean, we probably, at least 50 % of the folks that join our program are women. And so I don’t notice that much, but they all undercharge. And there’s really, and I think it’s, goes to this, I, I don’t even think it’s like, will I get rejected? Is it worthwhile to me? So how do you get through that gap?

Margie Warrell ( 10: 52.448 )

That’s good, okay, that’s good.

Margie Warrell ( 11: 16.8 )

Yes. So am I worth it? think it’s such a big question to ask ourselves. And what is my worth? What is my value? And will I be asking more than the market can bear? And I’m like, well, the only way you find that out is by risking asking for more than the market can bear. And you’re like, okay, well, they didn’t, you know, they weren’t willing to pay 50K. Yes. Well, how’s 40? You are aware, but you won’t receive 30 or 40 if you ask for 20. So, but I do think being willing to ask

John Jantsch ( 11: 23.416 )

Yes. Yes.

John Jantsch ( 11: 41. 134 )

Right, right, right.

Margie Warrell ( 11: 45.376 )

for what you truly believe you’re worth. And being clear here too, what is this commercially worth to them? Because we frequently consider, am I worth$ 30, 000? Well, I’m like, man, if the outcomes people get, I do a lot of work with CEOs and C-suite leaders. I’m like, if working with me as a coach could increase your bottom line by half a million bucks or a million or 5 million, or avoid you making a mistake that could cost you

John Jantsch ( 11: 52. 136. )

Yes. Right.

Margie Warrell ( 12: 14.97 )

way more than that, then man, you know, yeah, that’s worth 50k. So I believe you should be making sure you’re thinking about not what you think you’re worth, but what this also means to them.

John Jantsch ( 12: 18.412 )

Yeah,

John Jantsch ( 12: 24. 6 )

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I have used that to really give people a posture too, is really if you’re going back and reviewing results and you can actually say, I doubled their business. You know, what am I only asking X for? You know, it really gets a lot easier, you know, with that data. Do you have some habits, you talk about courage muscles. Do you have some habits or daily exercises that you really seem to work to help people build that courage muscle?

Margie Warrell ( 12: 52. 92. )

Yeah, well, I think firstly is doing more of whatever helps you bring your best bravest self to whatever challenges and whatever, you know, goals that you’ve got. And I think that can cross over multiple realms. What is it that makes you physically have the energy to not feel exhausted, as it is difficult to climb a mountain and to be brave if you’re only mentally exhausted? I think of it in terms of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual terms.

Are you focused on the highest leverage things? Or are you crazily overwhelmed? You don’t even know which way to look. So that is crucial. What is it that, emotionally speaking, helps you just process through the stress you’ve got on and get past some of those emotions that actually prevent you from carrying out the things you should do? And I think self-doubt is a really big one. So, for me, I begin each day with a new day.

John Jantsch ( 13: 43.864 )

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell ( 13: 49.042 )

I do some exercise, I read a book, and I record who I need to be today and what are my top three to five goals for the day. And for me at a spiritual level, and I say that without being religious or anything like that, just being, what is it that I feel is going to make the biggest mark and it’s going to make the biggest impact for those I’m here to serve today?

that corresponds to my core values and conveys a sense of meaning and purpose. And so I think all of those things when we’re of regularly doing small little things like those daily habits, whether it’s journaling and it’s exercising, connecting in with people that can hold you to account and bring out your vest, putting some guard rails around those who don’t, those small little things. But a question I often ask myself is what would I do if I was being brave today?

And it’s like, you know what? I would reach out to John and I would say, Hey John, Hey, let’s have coffee, you know, or Hey John, you know, can I be on your podcast? Not that that’s how this idea originated, but rather, put yourself out there. Like ask yourself, what would I do to day if I was being brave? And then do that very thing that comes to mind because courage is a muscle. have to put in the reps.

John Jantsch ( 15: 04.846 )

All I’m going to do is put you in coaching mode. I am a salesperson and I’m going to call on what could be the biggest account, you know, of my life. And I’m really afraid of getting rejected. What kind of rehancing would you recommend?

Margie Warrell ( 15: 19.424 )

beautiful one. I would start with principle one in the courage gap. Focus on what you want and not on what you fear. So, my gosh, I hope I make this if you’re afraid of being rejected. what if I don’t? Oh my goodness, it’s going to be like that and I’ll feel awful. But you’re putting all your energy into the outcome you don’t want. It’s like praying for what you don’t want to happen. And the things you care about expand. So I would be like one, what does success look like? Visualize

John Jantsch ( 15: 21.901 )

You

John Jantsch ( 15: 29.614 )

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch ( 15: 39. 758 )

Right, right,

Margie Warrell ( 15: 49. 51 )

the best possible outcome. I walk out of there, I’ve landed it. And why is that fantastic? Well, not only because it’s good for you, but how is this serve them? So make sure it’s not just about you. But how is this in service of something bigger than just you? Yeah, you’re great to get the commission, great to get the contract, great for whatever comes through it. But pay attention to why this is beneficial, not just for you, but also for them. So focus on that win-win and what is your highest intention here? Yes, you do want it, but not just for personal gain.

John Jantsch ( 16: 00.814 )

Alright.

Margie Warrell ( 16: 19.614 )

And I believe the only way to get that real clarity about your positive outcome is because if you aren’t committed and confident in what you want to achieve, fear will fill the void. And so your commitment to a positive outcome has to exceed your fear of a negative outcome. And if all you’re doing is going, I’m terrified and will be turned down. I’m like, stop. I would even have someone write it down. What would a wild success look like at this meeting, please write it down? Write down.

Why is this good for them as well as for you, not just for you? What is the value that you want to bring? Write down, what is the mindset, the belief that I need to operate from? Why not me if I have everything, that I am entirely worthy and deserving, and that I am? Because if it’s not me, it’s going to be John. So why not, you ask? And then ground yourself in the values that define who you want to be and go into that from that place of being worthy, of having integrity.

being brave, of being generous, of being someone that makes others ‘ lives better. And then I would finally advise you to shift your posture. Take a big deep breath, breathe in courage, breathe out fear, and stand tall, hold your shoulders back, because our physiology impacts our psychology.

John Jantsch ( 17: 36. 686 )

So there’s one of the things I’ve noticed this first quarter, maybe we’re turning the corner, I hope so, but there’s a lot of fear based just in unknown right now, geopolitical things, economic things, and that has a tendency to make people sort of freeze. How do get people through the unknown? You know, it’s like, well, I don’t know what will happen, so how do I bravely face this?

Margie Warrell ( 18: 03.936 )

Yes, and because we all value certainty, it automatically causes anxiety when there is a lot of uncertainty. Our brains are wired to make plans. Yeah, to make plans on a future that we can predict with some level of confidence. And so many people are saying,” I don’t know how confident I am in my ability to predict things,” no? The future has got a lot of unknowns. It’s very tense. It’s very unpredictable. But here’s what I say to people all the time.

John Jantsch ( 18: 12: 46 )

Hey change, that’s the only thing we hate.

Margie Warrell ( 18: 33.318 )

always been uncertainty, there will always be uncertainty. And if you are waiting for certainty before you make a move, you’re going to get left behind. And you’re going to be among the dust in the shadows of those who are taking action. But this isn’t about being reckless. What’s my best guess here, to go? How do I manage potential downsides? I’m not betting the family farm on a racehorse, but I’m going, okay, let me take a few steps forward here.

quickly reevaluate whether this is working or not? What am I learning? and cut down on those learning cycles. Because as they say in battle, it is safer to run left or right in the fog of battle in gunfire than it is to stand still. Because when you’re standing still, you’re not getting any information. You are not receiving any feedback. But when you’re in motion, okay, you know, this is working, this isn’t working. You are receiving something that will improve your standing.

as there is more certainty over time. So to anyone listening to this and you’re holding back, you’re like, do I, don’t I? It doesn’t need to be everything or nothing. Sometimes it can be incremental, but what’s something you can do today that’s moving you forward?

John Jantsch ( 1945.12 )

Awesome. Well, Margie, I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there a place you would invite people to connect with you and who will obviously learn more about the Courage Camp?

Margie Warrell ( 19: 54.258 )

Yes, John, I appreciate it. Well, you can head over to my website, margieworal.com and the courage gap. I have a whole page on there that in a video, et cetera, tells you about it, but you can also get it on Amazon and everywhere good books are sold. Additionally, I encourage people to connect with me on social media platforms like LinkedIn and Instagram. I’m everywhere under my name.

John Jantsch ( 20: 13. 678 )

All right, awesome. Again, appreciate you. Stop by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Margie Warrell ( 20: 14 )

Awesome, thanks John.