Trust, Storytelling, and the Future of Brands

John Jantsch ( 00: 01.21 )

Hello and welcome to the newest Duct Tape Marketing podcast episode. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Ernie Ross. He founded Ross Rethink and the Intangence Methodology, and is a leader in global branding strategy and innovation. His award-winning agency has shaped brands, political movements, and ideologies throughout the Caribbean and beyond. His newest book, Intangence: How Human Connection Creates Value, will be the subject of discussion.

between people, brands, and ideologies. So Ernie, welcome to the show.

Ernie Ross ( 00: 34.594 )

Thank you so much, Joan. I appreciate the opportunity.

John Jantsch ( 00: 37.4 )

Alright, so I’ve been in marketing a long, long time and one of things I know is that creating a new word is really hard. Even if something makes perfect sense, you still find you have to explain it to a lot and make people understand it. It’s like creating a new category of a product.

So why did you do it, Ernie? Why did we need a new word? And then, of course, obviously, I’d invite you to explain, what is it? What exactly do you mean by intangents?

Ernie Ross ( 01: 10.808 )

Well, you’re correct. It was a challenge. To define a space so exclusively that you own it. Additionally, there are intangible values and the study of human connection. Well, it is defined as the language of human connection. There are over 7, 000 languages spoken today, but the language of human connection is not one that is frequently used, as I like to claim.

John Jantsch ( 01: 42.158 )

Well, I suspect trust is a giant part of it as well, right? That’s one of those things that many a lot of well-established brands have a lot of trust with their target audience and their customers, I mean. And sometimes that’s hard to put. That’s challenging to measure. It’s certainly I think people understand it has value, but it’s hard to say, it’s worth X. So are you are you suggesting that not only do we need to focus on these things, but that they might actually be

Ernie Ross ( 02: 05.006 )

Sure.

John Jantsch ( 02: 11.842 )

more tangible than we assume.

Ernie Ross ( 02: 13.76 )

Absolutely not. In reality, I would go so far as to claim that trust is the new brand of goods. We live in a world where it’s hard to determine fact from fallacy anymore. That’s one of the imageries on social media, whether it’s AI generated or it’s being created by a human being who is manipulating us. So here’s an example.

John Jantsch ( 02: 19.406 )

Yes, yes indeed.

Ernie Ross ( 02: 39.372 )

that it is difficult to tell whether an image or even the spokesperson is real if you look at what’s happening politically or with a product or brand. It’s very difficult for us to determine that. Or in reality, if something goes wrong with a brand or a company, within a fraction of seconds or a minute, that image and those opinions, whether it be internal or external to your company,

goes viral. So that we live in a world where intangible values matter more than ever. And John, if there’s one thing I want your audience to take away from today, it’s…

cornerstone of the principle of intentions and that is something only has value when it holds meaning to you. Nothing in life, whether it be a physical asset or a human relationship, is what I call derivative meaning. It only has a value because you give it its meaning. Worth, on the other hand, is a little different. The market will pay for it, not the value.

Value is determined by meaning. So what determines work? The degree to which you firmly believe in the value, which returns, at the end of the day, through what I refer to as the circle of consumer sentiment. That’s what determines our lives.

John Jantsch ( 04: 01.902 )

Yeah, I want to stay on that point of trust a little bit because I think I read, who’s the group that puts out the trust index every year? It’s an all time low. And as you mentioned, I believe that AI is one of the factors making things so much worse that people are now mistaken for believing what they are seeing is a fake.

in a lot of instances. And so how do you get past that? mean, to somebody who is being real, that is very authentic, but now is kind of being lumped in with what the sentiment is, how do you break free from that?

Ernie Ross ( 04: 25.815 )

of this.

Ernie Ross ( 04: 42.488 )

We are measured by more than what we simply offer, as is the case with any human relationship. We’re measured by what we mean to someone. And to show up authentically is really to be true to manifesting those ideals of your brand as you would in any human relationship. Here’s a good illustration of that. You would pay around$ 11.5 million

for a one-minute advertisement on the transient medium Superbowl. And there’s an ad I always like to refer to for a particular brand that I would pause after 58 seconds of its television commercial. And I would ask the audience, tell me what story is being told, because you never see the product being referenced or used at all.

And the ad actually addresses the interaction between a father and his child. The entire ad just shows fathers interacting with their children. And you would think you were crazy if you had spent$ 11.5 million of your client’s money and said,” I think you should run.” And finally, in the last two seconds, the logo comes on for Dove Men’s Care. But…

More than that, really. You can’t just tag a logo to the end of an ad like that. They established the That’s Care dot com movement, which supported a paternity care for men and promoted the cause of men as parents all over the world. You can imagine which soap I use, by the way, as a single ad.

So it’s really about not just showing up by having an intangible value and putting it in a commercial, but manifesting that value and being true to it. In fact, Edelman only published a report in 2024 that stated that trust was the main factor in consumer decisions and that 85 % of the market was influenced by trust.

Ernie Ross ( 06: 51.01 )

was willing to pay more than the price for a good that they backed, and they even made up for any errors in it. Like any human relationship, you would forgive someone you really care about if you felt they were acting in your interest.

John Jantsch ( 07: 07.322 )

I am aware of the fact that I have already paid more and am willing to do so. And I think a lot of people are, mean, that we’re risk averse. And so in many cases, I believe that if we have faith in a certain brand or something, we’ll just go back because the likelihood of disappointment is too high, even if it’s imagined.

Ernie Ross ( 07: 31.0)

Sure.

John Jantsch ( 07: 31.738 )

Talk a little bit about how to ensure that we are nurturing human connections as people become more and more distant from you, since, obviously, AI is replacing humans, or at least that’s how it’s being pitched in a lot of cases.

Ernie Ross ( 07: 49.868 )

You’re absolutely correct. While I’m not a critic of AI, I think it has a phenomenal impact on how we’re going to develop as a species. But here’s the difference that I’d like to carve out of it. Artificial intelligence is not considered artificial intelligence. It could mimic human emotions, but it cannot actually encounter and experience it. It is unavoidable when it encounters love, grief, hatred, anger, or fear.

So that’s what’s unique about us. If you gave me a work of art, John, and I loved it, and I said, wow, John, this is incredible, I’m gonna hang it on my wall, and you said, well, it was created by artificial intelligence, it would immediately be diminished in its value to me, or a piece of music for that matter. That’s what makes us real, because those are expressions of our humanity. And nothing can mimic that. Consequently, artificial intelligence is constrained by the non-human nature of its origin.

cannot encounter those human emotions. And that’s the space and role we will always have, I think.

John Jantsch ( 08:54.446 )

Well, I agree with you thoroughly, but let me back up on that a little bit. Why should it matter how a piece of art was made if I believe it to still be a piece of art?

Ernie Ross ( 08: 58.222 )

Sure.

Ernie Ross ( 09: 06.818 )

Because it would not be authentic, right? If there were Picassos that he had created but he had never signed it, that would be indistinguishable space. It would not have the same intangible value. so that the identity of the creator of that piece is determined by the piece’s creator. Here’s an example. You might have heard about the duct tape and the banana.

John Jantsch ( 09: 14. 394 )

Sure.

Ernie Ross ( 09: 32.206 )

that was made at this station. It sold recently for$ 2 million. Or John Cage, who created four minutes, seconds of this piece that no one plays. That is an illustration of what we value in the person who is originating the piece, and what is authenticating and validating it. But if it’s done by AI,

John Jantsch ( 09: 32. 881 )

yes, yeah, of course I did.

Ernie Ross ( 09: 58.306 )

then it could be repeated a hundred times. It’s AI generated, it’s not created by John. You stand out from the competition. So when you create a piece, is unique to its own individual that would ever exist on this planet ever again. And that’s what makes us unique and that’s what makes the pieces created by human unique.

John Jantsch ( 10: 61 )

You

started off by, or you gave the example of the Dove and Men’s Care products, and really you kind of put the word in the story they were telling. And I want to return a little bit because I believe one of the most powerful ways to make connections is through stories. And I think a lot of marketers have woken up to that idea, certainly the last five, 10 years. So what role do you think storytelling, authentic storytelling plays in

in defining the purpose of a brand.

Ernie Ross ( 10: 54.356 )

Absolutely not. Telling an emotionally compelling story, any narrative of that kind, makes it memorable. It connects you authentically with your… We’re essentially, as human beings, sentient beings. The majority of our decisions are based on our feelings, not on what we believe logic to be. And we’re engaged by stories. And it embodies our very essence.

It is what we’re created of memories, memories that are made of stories. So providing a brand is embodying an intangible value woven together through an emotionally compelling story. Once the shared intangible value has been embodied in that particular offering, that will undoubtedly become a point of resonance while that is taking place. Here’s an example. If the beverage industry were new to us,

And I said, John, I’ve done everything with this product. I don’t think it’s going do remarkably well. Its colors are not particularly appealing. Black.

It has no nutritional value at all. I’m not going to sell it in flavor. But I’m going to guarantee you 1.9 billion units every day around the world. You believe that to be crazy. But that’s exactly what Coca-Cola does. And these incredibly moving stories weave it all together. They don’t sell it in flavor, taste, the feeling, open happiness, real magic, all themes over the last 10 years. So if a product, a beverage,

As a way to express the satisfaction of the desire for human connection, a product with no nutritional value and 38 grams of sugar can be sold. Woven together tree, more shake-upelling stories, I think is the best evidence of the fact.

John Jantsch ( 12: 38. 234 )

Okay, well again, I agree with you, but I’m going to push back on another. They’re selling poison under, you know, that, right? So are they actually making people buy products that are actually bad for them? I would suggest that that’s probably using what you’re talking about, you know, for evil rather than for good.

Ernie Ross ( 12: 59. 982 )

Very good, absolute point. I remember I had to give a talk at the Global Happiness Summit right here in Costa Rica, the United Nations established University of Peace. And when I spoke about Coca-Cola, everyone in the audience shook their heads and said,” Why are you doing that?” I said, well, don’t shoot the messenger. They are the ones who control happiness. Now, who determines whether it’s manipulative or positive is based upon the lens you’re filtering it through. I agree with you.

John Jantsch ( 13: 17.439 )

the

Ernie Ross ( 13: 28.706 )

However, they’re employing methods and devices that are so effective that they’re using. Maybe those of us who are pushing climate change or operating an NGO could learn from some of these techniques. Because ultimately, it’s determined by outcome. However, if we can employ and use some of the methods and tools that those large brands are using, we might be able to move the needle a little bit in terms of the future.

the more noble ideals and projects that we have. You’re therefore completely correct. It’s more about how are they achieving it than whether it’s being done for greater good.

John Jantsch ( 14: 00.42 )

Yeah.

John Jantsch ( 14: 06.648 )

Yeah. So if I’m a business that is not of Coca-Cola size by any means but has been selling benefits and features and I now believe we need to change, connect, and discover our purpose so that we can tell that authentic story, I’m not really of that size. Where do you help people start?

Ernie Ross ( 14: 30.84 )

The tangents are made up of three schools of thought. The first is called pillars of purpose. The most three probing questions you can ask a brand or yourself are the most important to ask introspectively. Question one is who am I? Question two, and is who am I to you? What is my purpose, would be the second question. What greater purpose do I serve to you? And the final inquiry is: How will I be remembered?

What lingers with you after interaction, whether you see the packaging or an ad that was run, what stays with you? And out of those three are like signposts to take you to what I call the universal truth. Something that is consistent with your brand ethos. As an example, if you were a brand of water, it could be no one in the world should ever go thirsty. So it would…

That would be building the brand architecture in an emotional space. Notice it’s not what is it, it’s who am I? What do I do for a living? How will I be remembered? The second school of thought is known as conversational currency. How do you make the message viral? How do you get the message out there? And that relies on three tenets. Is the message relevant? Do I have a high regard for the person I’m hearing or it’s coming from? And does it resonate with me at a deeply fundamental level?

The final school of thought would be the science of human connection, which are the techniques and devices you’re using to be able to create that connection based upon purpose, passion, or do you get a passion following what I call a polyphonic understanding of the marketplace polyphony.

coming from a musical term that allows an instrument to play multiple notes at once. In much the same way, you have to track what’s happening with emerging trends, changes in attitudes, consumer behavior, and so on, to be able to travel ahead of your headlights, so to speak, so that you can measure the response that you need to have in your brand storytelling.

John Jantsch ( 16: 32. 515 )

You work in some different markets outside of the US. In your view, do you think there are cultural differences in not only how people market, but how people build trust, how people get connected to brands?

Ernie Ross ( 16: 45. 62 )

Absolutely, absolutely. There is, however, that space that I call the universal truth, where it’s all expansive, regardless of what market. Each market has its own dynamics and so on. But at the end of the day, reality is really a perspective. In our offices, as you come into the building, there is a very unusual object that reinforces this.

There is a broom perched against it, and it appears to be a mirror with a crack in it. A lot of people come into the office and they say, why do you have this object here? And I responded,” You tell me.” And they look at it and they talk about maybe the frailty of life. so I said, no, it’s just what it looks like. And the.

It is done by, it’s an installation done by an artist from Argentina called Leandro Ehrlich. And it’s a figment in reality. He’s just created an open space, put a frame of metal running across it diagonally, and makes it look like a crack. He’s put a broom in the front and a broom in the back. John, you can see right through this object without seeing your own reflection. But nine out of 10 people stand in front of it, including me, when I first got it.

and look in the mirror. And it’s based upon the whole principle, know, that we don’t see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are. And it reinforces the idea that we have to question this version of reality. So to your point about what works in which region of the world, that’s about it. Being able to question the reality as determined by the audience that you’re reaching to. What version of this reality is it before you actually connect and do it?

John Jantsch ( 18: 21.774 )

You spread the word of intangence. What do you hope the general public’s perceptions of marketing leadership and human behavior will allow this concept to spread?

Ernie Ross ( 18: 33.868 )

If I’m going to go to the last chapter, I’ll just want to read a small portion of it for you. This is really to me key to what I would love everybody to take away from it. It reads, if nothing from nothing is an irrefutable law of physics, then what could possibly have first existed before anything else? Everything was initially entirely intangible.

This is a profound insight into the question of what first existed. And throughout the book, I show how powerful and real the intangible world is. As an example, if you took all the companies traded in the S &amp, P 500, the value of it is about$ 28 trillion. And if you sold every physical asset, you wouldn’t even get to 20 %

of the$ 28 trillion. So it’s all intangible assets and defined through an intangible meaning. The world also exists, then. What is one of the world’s largest transportation companies? Uber. How many vehicles do they possess? What’s one of the world’s largest retail companies? It’s Amazon, I believe. How much mortar and stone do they actually have? And if you looked at all the major brands in the world, every single one from Apple to

Coca-Cola or Microsoft? They have charts done by their accounting firms that are measuring their intangible value greater than that of their tangible value. I would be the one to win the game if I sold you the Coca-Cola company today and gave you all the factories and buildings with the same name. So it’s an intangible space. And so that’s what I would like to take away from. To recognize that you took this into a…

a spiritual realm, if you will, and you ask the question, how did we actually begin? How did everything start? Now you’ll get theories from scientists to religious people, but if we can agree on one principle, that is all intangible. I have a little cartoon in the book of a magician pulling things out of a hat, and it says it can’t be weighed, it can’t be held, it can’t be shipped, but it exists. It is non-tangible.

Ernie Ross ( 20: 52.502 )

So essentially, that’s where I’d like to think we are at the end of the day.

John Jantsch ( 20: 57.602 )

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast for a moment. Is there somewhere you would invite people to connect with you, find out about your work, and obviously connect with your book?

Ernie Ross ( 21: 08.408 )

Sure, it’s intangines.com. It’s spelled I-N-T-A-N-G-I-E-N-C dot com. That is the website. The book is available through Amazon, Walmart, Target, Indigo, and several other outlets. There are courses that are taught. There’s a four to five minute master class. And there’s a three day program validated by the United Nations Established University for Peace. And through…

business school called Ecole des Ponds. The body of work has been excellently evaluated and given testimonials by Harvard professors, and so on, but more importantly, it is the number of people taking the program, over 10,000 people, around the world. I’m humbled by the responses we’ve got, and I’m grateful to you, John, for giving me yet another platform to ventilate the views.

John Jantsch ( 22: 06.202 )

You bet, and we’ll also have a link to Intangence in the show notes for those of you who are listening. So, Ernie, again, I appreciate you stopping by and maybe we’ll run into you one of these days in Costa Rica. Okay, take caution.

Ernie Ross ( 22: 18.946 )

I look forward to that, John. I’ll be by your side with all of my advice. Thank you so much. Many thanks.