Human Connection Is a Growth Tactic

John Jantsch ( 00: 00.942 )

Hello and welcome to the newest episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is John Grabowski, Jonathan Grabowski. He co-founded and leads Pengey, an on-demand graphic design service that charges flat monthly for unlimited custom design work for businesses. Pengey connects clients with top tier designers, delivering completed projects within 48 hours.

So we’ll talk about design, graphic design, and perhaps how AI might be influencing that field as well. So Jonathan, welcome to the show.

Johnathan ( 00: 35.032 )

I appreciate you having me. I’ve been a fan and we’ve known each other for some time now and excited to explore the podcast and any questions that you may have.

John Jantsch ( 00: 43. 982 )

So I started to introduce you as John. I don’t think my official name is Jonathan. I’ve always been John, exactly. Is Jonathan always been your thing or did it ever get shortened?

Johnathan ( 00: 54.24 )

Yeah, so yeah, so my there are probably about like three people on planet Earth that call me John like every day. My mother who unfortunately passed away about five ish years or so ago was very, particular about Jonathan and pretty much corrected them and scolded them anytime anybody ever said John. You see, I’ve always been just Jonathan.

John Jantsch ( 01: 00.206 )

Yeah.

John Jantsch ( 01: 11. 79 )

Yeah.

John Jantsch ( 01: 17.09 )

Yes. You know, we all have a connection to Kansas City. So I’ll share this story. Our quarterback, Pat Mahomes, was being called by a sports announcer as I listened. and the other announcer says his mother has scolded me frequently. is Patrick. so he also shares that with his mother. So

Johnathan ( 01: 33. 002 )

Nice. That’s great. And I do feel a little nostalgic for you because we defeated you in the Super Bowl last year.

John Jantsch ( 01: 43.83 )

Yes, I’ll tell you that wasn’t very entertaining to watch. the name Pengey, it’s probably on your website somewhere. Anytime I see like a kind of a different, unique name, was there some story behind that?

Johnathan ( 01: 47.415 )

Heh heh.

Johnathan ( 01: 59.318 )

Yeah, great question. I don’t really share too much about it because people aren’t as curious as you may think. So when we first started, we had the thought that, well, if you were to slow down the name PNG, it would eventually lead to a specific file extension that is related to graphic design.

John Jantsch ( 02: 05.38 )

No, that’s accurate.

John Jantsch ( 02: 23.31 )

Huh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes. What is that programable network graphic or something? I have no idea what it means. Yeah.

Johnathan ( 02: 28.811 )

And so it is.

Yes, exactly right. So it’s essentially PNG. Now, PNG speeding it up, of course, and that’s related to the graphic design. So although we are originally a graphic design company, we’ve kind of morphed into more of like a creative services that expand well beyond, but kind of paying respect to the graphic design aspect that it is PNG, but it technically came from PNG.

John Jantsch ( 02: 56. 612 )

Well, now I’m really glad I asked that question because that’s a great story. Know that occasionally people say,” Oh, I just saw it there.” heard it and I thought it sounded cool. The domain was available, but that’s a great story. Okay.

Johnathan ( 02: 59.992 )

Yeah.

Johnathan ( 03: 04.959 )

Yes, yes. Yeah, we, I remember very vividly, it was like 12, oneo’clock, twoo’clock in the morning when my co-founder and I were talking about it we’re just like, you know, putting things together and that was the one that stuck. Hence.

John Jantsch ( 03: 17.156 )

That’s fantastic. So was there any particular vision? Like, you know, a lot of people start companies because like I couldn’t find good graphic design myself. So I founded a business. there, was there any story or vision like that?

Johnathan ( 30. 166 )

Yeah, I would say…

I’m not a graphic designer. So, we were a digital marketing firm. We sucked. We probably didn’t use the duct tape marketing system, uh, in order for us to grow. Uh, we were terrible. So we basically, uh, but the one thing that people always said was we were really good at graphic design. And then we kind of likened ourselves to saying, This is our, This is what we’re selling. We turned it into a product high service.

and it obviously concentrated a lot on graphic design. Obviously now it’s a little bit more expanded beyond just graphic design as the world of AI and marketing as a whole, it becomes necessary. finding people, finding reliable people, hiring people is a pain in the absolute butt. It’s terrible. I don’t like hiring people simply because of

There are so many facets to it. The emotional aspect is this person a good product fit into the culture of the business? Are they actually good at their job? Do they just tell you that they do a good job even though they don’t? I mean, there’s a lot of fundamental factors. So what if there was a way to immediately go to a website, find and speak with someone who is trustworthy, good, inherently good at what they do, and can essentially turn things around in a hurry?

That is really the ethos behind Penge and how it started. It’s just like, we got good at one particular thing. We were given credit for it, established a business, and are now.

John Jantsch ( 05: 08.285 )

And I believe that you and I last spoke, because you and I are no longer just you and another person in a room, right? I mean, it’s you’ve built quite an organization.

Johnathan ( 05: 16.95 )

Yes, we have over 500 employees and thousands of customers all over the nation and the world at this point. And the problems that I had then, just getting it off the ground, now the problems are completely different. Because if you make a mistake, you have lives of others that are going to be hurt or be affected, and they are more meaningful and impactful.

better off because of your decision making. then so it’s just systematically you have to become more systematic and more thoughtful in your approach to every day rather than just kind of be like, hey man, what are we doing today? Like

John Jantsch ( 05: 56.632 )

Right. So, you know, I’ve preached for years strategy before tactics. A lot of people view even design projects, know, we need a brochure. We require a banner. We need a logo. And there is really no thought put into it. It’s just like, yeah, okay. I like that one. How can you assist businesses in developing a kind of brand identity rather than just completing one-time projects?

Johnathan ( 06: 21.09 )

Yes, I mean, that’s actually a difficult situation because most of our customers already have established brands as well as being digital marketing agencies. So from like a business standpoint, we assess it no differently than a than a typical project. The core differentiation, in my opinion, if you were to hire like a service like PENGIE versus that of like an agency, an agency is probably going to be able to sit down and talk to you and kind of go over like the fundamental

John Jantsch ( 06: 32.398 )

Yes.

John Jantsch ( 06: 46.852 )

Yes, give me a creative brief. Yeah.

Johnathan ( 06: 48.696 )

Correctly. Creative Breeze can talk to you for several hours and be able to do that. We’re very objective with what you’re looking for, and we’re very project- or visual-oriented. So if you have a new company, it’s the art director’s job to find out more about your company. And then you have to provide us a visual. And what I personally discovered is that, John, and perhaps you could attest to this, like, if someone just tells you, I want this, and you’re like,” Oh, I want this,”

Well, what the hell does this look like? correct, correct, and correct. That is like literally the worst thing that you can say on planet Earth. Like, I know when I say, OK, well, that’s really nice to hear that. But, bro, I need something in your brain, please listen. I need a sliver of your brain to understand what the hell you’re trying to do. So we must start there first. And if you can’t provide a visual, to be honest with you, we don’t really want you as a client.

John Jantsch ( 07: 20.356 )

I’ll be aware of it when I see it.

John Jantsch ( 07: 41.656 )

Yes, yes, yes.

Johnathan ( 07: 48.248 )

Because like you’re going to fail in Pengey. And to be honest, that’s where the biggest obstacle to Pengey’s success lies, and that’s because the customers don’t communicate effectively and effectively. And you would be surprised at how bad at times entrepreneurs and business professionals are at communicating. And what I discovered was that the designers are actually the best like this.

the teams aspects like the when a designer works at as a customer works at Pengey, they’re the best customers because they have the empathy and the understanding that is needed to articulate a project. Whereas like a founder is very like, I need this done, I need it done tomorrow, I need it done right now, and it needs to be done, you know, in 1080p, the 18 different styles and please give it to me ASAP. Like, and those are excellent clients who can work.

John Jantsch ( 08: 18.404 )

you

Johnathan ( 08: 45.032 )

communication is so, important.

John Jantsch ( 08: 49.39 )

So, do you find that you either don’t, or, hey, you fire that customer, or do you find that you are working on brand strategy a little bit more?

Johnathan ( 09: 03.33 )

Yes, I believe there is a reason for that. Well, number one, my claim to fame is that I fired more customers than people. And I’m very quick to be able to say, listen, this isn’t a good fit. And it’s OK. I believe that business discipline is extremely important. If you focus all of your time and energy on the loudest customers and problems, I don’t think you will ever complete anything ever because you always just be putting out fires.

John Jantsch ( 09:24.141 )

Yes.

Johnathan ( 09: 31.01 )

But when it comes to the consultancy, yeah, I think that’s like a core differentiation between us and like probably our competitors is that there’s a human aspect. And I believe that’s because the human element of communicating with our customers, understanding them, getting them informed that the project has been completed, or that the project is being worked on is what we’re looking for. And that is kind of like the differentiation between us and like AI. You can make use of AI quickly.

John Jantsch ( 09: 57.506 )

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan ( 09: 59.254 )

And it is absolutely fantastic. Like we use the AI at Pengey all the time. However, I believe the reason you sign up for a service like Pengey is because you want that interaction.

John Jantsch ( 10: 09.828 )

Do you have, and I do want to dive into the AI a little bit. However, I didn’t want to go there right away. So set the table a little more. Do you have any examples of which you can think of and don’t have to name them if you don’t want to, but where the work you’ve done or your team’s done has kind of had a significant impact on a brand’s reputation or perhaps even success?

Johnathan ( 10: 31.606 )

Yeah, there is a two things, a very, I’ll try to say it without saying it, very reputable university and institution that is located in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania that we have worked with for multiple years, created slideshows.

basically, where the presentations were then made and presented to making changes internally within the business’s infrastructure. So I can’t necessarily go into detail, but if you kind of use my words, you can kind of put two and two together. The presentations that were made and the discussions we had with that team have had a significant impact have been instrumental.

changes in the business structure, the acquisition of multiple other institutions and hospitals and things like that. And then in addition to that, serving people that have illnesses and things like that. has that just one from a feel-good kind of one. Then there’s another one that’s also located in Philadelphia, which I’m not going to be able to go into with the specific name, but it is a delivery service.

John Jantsch ( 11: 45. 91. )

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan ( 11: 55.63 )

where we pretty much were able to incrementally help their brand from beginning to I would say very close to IPO. Because I believe a lot of it has to do with strategy, I’m not sure if what we did specifically contributed to the growth of what it is. But from a visual standpoint and the advertising and execution behind that advertising allowed that company to grow exponentially.

John Jantsch ( 12: 25. 38 )

Yeah, I think a lot of businesses, most businesses quite frankly, really underestimate the value of the visual aspects of their brand. And I think that, I think it can make a huge difference. It doesn’t mean you have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on something; another Kansas City company, H &amp, R Blocks, did it years ago, and their new logo was essentially this square green block. You’ve probably seen it because they use it now.

And I was speaking with their marketing representative, who claimed they had spent$ 150, 000 on that logo. And I was like, it’s a square green block. But, but I do think that companies, you know, who really get that idea, you know, are willing to invest and do spend a lot of money on the right look and the right feel because it supports the overall message. then, you know, ultimately makes people feel satisfied about doing business with the business.

Johnathan ( 12: 56.994 )

Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Johnathan ( 13: 16.086 )

Yeah, I would actually like on on the slight contrary, I would say I would love to understand the amount of money that was wasted on the on indecisions of, you know, founding partners or executives and things like that. Because I believe that’s like where, in my opinion, the beauty of PNG is because it lessens the inconsequencies of the actual graphic design process. So like, you could have easily asked for within a month’s time frame, you could easily ask for

John Jantsch ( 13: 24.171 )

sure.

John Jantsch ( 13: 28. 356 )

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch ( 13: 39.225 )

Yeah.

Johnathan ( 13: 44.622 )

500 different variations of the of the H &amp, R block square and I can almost guarantee you that there’s something in there that’s going to be moderately decent if not the the one But yeah, I find it interesting as well

John Jantsch ( 13: 52. 964 )

Yeah, Yeah, but you didn’t, you didn’t do focus groups and you know, mean.

Johnathan ( 14:02.21 )

Yeah, I mean, that’s a different ball game, right? Like, that’s just like that’s that’s a client that I would say we love the revenue. But at the same time, I’m not sure if I want to participate because there is just so much emotion involved, you know.

John Jantsch ( 14: 12.034 )

Yes, yes, yes.

John Jantsch ( 14: 17 )

Well, and of course, you know, when they, the other thing with the company that’s that, that publicly known too, when they rolled it out, then they had to take all kinds of crap about it. know, it’s like, I can’t believe that.

Johnathan ( 14: 25. 924 )

gosh, Yes, yes, yes. And that’s always interesting, the world of marketing nowadays of how sensitive a lot of people are in social media. I think it’s OK to have opinions, obviously, but like, man, like one bad thing could absolutely destroy a company. And that is actually very true in the world of business, too. If you’re not making the right decisions, one wrong move can just fundamentally destroy trust, can fundamentally destroy

John Jantsch ( 14: 34.244 )

Yeah.

Johnathan ( 14: 54. 891 )

the business and myself and my co-founder hold that to very high regard.

John Jantsch ( 14: 56.056 )

Yes.

John Jantsch ( 15: 00. 334 )

Let’s talk a little bit about AI. Although AI graphic tools are improving, I still believe they are not there where a regular user could simply grab anything and have a whole set of images and visuals. What tools are you adopting? What tools, I mean, how are you using AI in the whole design workflow?

Johnathan ( 15: 24. 012 )

Yeah, we love AI. We employ AI every day. Are there specific tools? None that I could say. However, we essentially use AI for everything internally. However, I don’t feel the I’m not afraid of AI terminating a business like ours, because I think from a business standpoint, one of two things

John Jantsch ( 15: 27. 172 )

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch ( 15: 39.15 )

Right.

Johnathan ( 15: 52.896 )

We humans are very human-driven creatures, and we want to interact with other people regardless. And right now, as you said, and I don’t think even in the next five, 10 years, unless there’s some type of way in order to get people to think for you, you need a human being to submit these AI prompts and you need AI to at least make modifications. There must be some human touching it, even if you use do it yourself models. So

John Jantsch ( 15: 56.536 )

Mm-hmm.

Johnathan ( 16: 22.07 )

With that said, I don’t think there’ll ever be a need for full on AI specifically, but I do think that it’s a necessary tool for that every company should be implementing right now.

John Jantsch ( 16: 37.038 )

about designers? mean, you hire a lot of designers, you probably talk to thousands of folks that want to, you know, kind of come into your stable. Do you have any advice for someone who is currently learning design about embracing AI or how important it is for their relationship to be?

Johnathan ( 16: 55.35 )

Yes. I mean, I think you’d be foolish not to use it to be honest with you. mean, like, for example, if a client comes up to us and says, Hey, I need a, a project, right. Done. Okay, cool. I need it finished in twelve hours. Well, we could use AI, right. And give them at least like 90 % of where it needs to be. Ask the client, Hey, what’s the stat? Like, what do you think of this? And then make the necessary modifications to ensure that everyone is completely custom and individual. that is at times how we use AI.

John Jantsch ( 16: 58.104 )

Yes, yes.

Johnathan ( 17: 26.016 )

It just depends on individual circumstances. But again, you can’t, in my opinion, I don’t think you can make anything custom directly from AI. It’s passable at best. And it can be used if you’re happy with the final solution. But if you want something on brand and if you want something specific to your company, it just, right now at least, you need a human being.

John Jantsch ( 17: 50. 018 )

Yeah, if nothing else, think, you know, I still find that the human being is going to bring empathy, is going to bring strategy, is going to bring context. You know, a lot of times design has to be done in the context of a family of designs or the context of, you know, what the service offering is. And I believe that we are undoubtedly not there with AI, at least for the time being.

Johnathan ( 18: 14.102 )

Yes, I guarantee it 100 %. I mean, I mean, like, I think the best phrase to use in this and I kind of say this at times to some, like to our salespeople is like, imagine going into AI and saying, Hey, could you please put a photo of a family? Right? Like the word “family” is so dissimilar to so many people. You know, it could be a man and a woman, it could be same sex, like family, it could be you and a dog, like it doesn’t really

John Jantsch ( 18: 30. 404 )

You

Johnathan ( 18: 42.946 )

there’s no boundaries to that. And I believe that’s where you put your very, very well-eloquent comment, John. The understanding of, say,” Who is your target audience?” Who are the people that you’re trying to go to? So I would say to a designer to ask,” How do I take my business to the next level if they are listening right now and trying to figure out themselves”? I would say understand the other person’s business to the fullest extent and have some level of empathy and conversation skills that you can display to understand the company in full.

because that’s why people are actually buying. They don’t have to buy. In our business, they’re probably buying because of the service because it’s very obvious. Hello, for this price, you receive unrestricted graphic design. like for our business specifically, it’s very numbers driven and very like direct, right? But I would say for a business or like an agency or something like that, they’re probably buying you, right? They are currently purchasing the product in our world, but they are staying because of the human. And that’s…

John Jantsch ( 1993: 33.55 )

Yeah.

Johnathan ( 19: 41.398 )

a little bit of a different buying process, but at the same, it’s still we’re buying from other people. We’re staying because we adore X designer or person. And I think if you were to look at our reviews versus our competitors, we get reviews pretty much one to two times a day from every other day, at least from our customers. And it’s because of how we make them feel. But if you were to look at the landscape, there isn’t a single company

that’s genuinely writing reviews about the service, except for a business like ours because of the way the emotional reaction that our customers are having to our team.

John Jantsch ( 20: 18 / 648 )

You know, it’s interesting. As part of our strategy planning process, I, as you know, review companies ‘ reviews. I’ve read millions of reviews and it I’m struck by how often, how, how infrequently the company’s actually mentioned. It’s always rusty fixed my boiler and he was amazing. I don’t even know the name of the business, he was like. and I think that people really, underestimate the, the, that experience is such a big part of, of getting that positive reaction.

Johnathan ( 20: 35.496 )

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Johnathan ( 20: 47. 662 )

Yeah, I mean, just look at all the best companies in the world. You have Disney, after all, don’t you? Like my father’s in Disney. This is why I brought it up without us. And he’s a selfish piece of crap for not inviting me there by himself. No, I’m just kidding. When you leave Disney World, you realize, wow, man, they made my child feel so happy, don’t you think? Or, man, I feel like a kid again. Like these are all things that you’re constantly thinking about. And if we can help alleviate like a therapist can.

John Jantsch ( 20: 59.172 )

you

Johnathan ( 21: 16.042 )

ounce of that effort and that stress that you probably have in your business day to day. It’s a world of hurt. And I want to offer like business advice as well, specifically from the people who are listening to this. We actually train our sales, excuse me, our support people to find a personal element to that person. Right? And so I’ll give you a quick story. And speaking of names, I’ll mention the person’s names, but a gentleman by the name of Pepe found out somehow some way

that that particular day was one of our clients ‘ birthdays. He didn’t say anything or, or, or mentioned anything. Send him a Google meet or other informal conversation. And then he changed his background and we never told him to do this like specifically, but we do teach the aspect of having that level of empathy. He had a happy birthday sign in the background and pretty much had like a hat on and a, and like a

a string of that to honor the man’s birthday. And he was just like thrilled and overjoyed. And it’s just like those seemingly trivial things where the reason people stay at Penge and stay customers aren’t related to the graphic design. It’s how the people, how our team is making them feel.

John Jantsch ( 22: 18.434 )

That is entertaining. Yeah.

John Jantsch ( 22: 29.056 )

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you like to invite people to learn more about PNG or where would you like to invite people to meet with you?

Johnathan ( 22: 38.668 )

Yes, absolutely. Penji. co. That would be amazing if you felt the need to become a customer. But if I provided even an ounce of value at all, and if you need help in your life or business, I’d be more than happy to assist. That’s kind of my intention behind this plan, in my opinion, is to assist others. Email me, Jonathan, J-O-H-N-A-T-H-A-N at penji. co. I’d be more than happy to give you my time in any way I can to help you.

John Jantsch ( 23: 06.786 )

Awesome. Well, again, it’s great catching up with you again, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Johnathan ( 23: 11.928 )

Brother, that sounds good.