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  • Design for Amiability: Lessons from Vienna

    Design for Amiability: Lessons from Vienna

    Today’s web is not always an amiable place. Sites greet you with a popover that demands assent to their cookie policy, and leave you with Taboola ads promising “One Weird Trick!” to cure your ailments. Social media sites are tuned for engagement, and few things are more engaging than a fight. Today it seems that people want to quarrel; I have seen flame wars among birders.  

    These tensions are often at odds with a site’s goals. If we are providing support and advice to customers, we don’t want those customers to wrangle with each other. If we offer news about the latest research, we want readers to feel at ease; if we promote upcoming marches, we want our core supporters to feel comfortable and we want curious newcomers to feel welcome. 

    In a study for a conference on the History of the Web, I looked to the origins of Computer Science in Vienna (1928-1934)  for a case study of the importance of amiability in a research community and the disastrous consequences of its loss. That story has interesting implications for web environments that promote amiable interaction among disparate, difficult (and sometimes disagreeable) people.

    The Vienna Circle

    Though people had been thinking about calculating engines and thinking machines from antiquity, Computing really got going in Depression-era Vienna.  The people who worked out the theory had no interest in building machines; they wanted to puzzle out the limits of reason in the absence of divine authority. If we could not rely on God or Aristotle to tell us how to think, could we instead build arguments that were self-contained and demonstrably correct? Can we be sure that mathematics is consistent? Are there things that are true but that cannot be expressed in language? 

    The core ideas were worked out in the weekly meetings (Thursdays at 6) of a group remembered as the Vienna Circle. They got together in the office of Professor Moritz Schlick at the University of Vienna to discuss problems in philosophy, math, and language. The intersection of physics and philosophy had long been a specialty of this Vienna department, and this work had placed them among the world leaders.  Schlick’s colleague Hans Hahn was a central participant, and by 1928 Hahn brought along his graduate students Karl Menger and Kurt Gödel. Other frequent participants included philosopher Rudolf Carnap, psychologist Karl Popper, economist Ludwig von Mises (brought by his brother Frederick, a physicist),  graphic designer Otto Neurath (inventor of infographics), and architect Josef Frank (brought by his physicist brother, Phillip).  Out-of-town visitors often joined, including the young Johnny von Neumann, Alfred Tarski, and the irascible Ludwig Wittgenstein. 

    When Schlick’s office grew too dim, participants adjourned to a nearby café for additional discussion with an even larger circle of participants.  This convivial circle was far from unique.  An intersecting circle–Neurath, von Mises, Oskar Morgenstern–established the Austrian School of free-market economics. There were theatrical circles (Peter Lorre, Hedy Lamarr, Max Reinhardt), and literary circles. The café was where things happened.

    The interdisciplinarity of the group posed real challenges of temperament and understanding. Personalities were often a challenge. Gödel was convinced people were trying to poison him. Architect Josef Frank depended on contracts for public housing, which Mises opposed as wasteful. Wittgenstein’s temper had lost him his job as a secondary school teacher, and for some of these years he maintained a detailed list of whom he was willing to meet. Neurath was eager to detect muddled thinking and would interrupt a speaker with a shouted “Metaphysics!” The continuing amity of these meetings was facilitated by the personality of their leader, Moritz Schlick, who would be remembered as notably adept in keeping disagreements from becoming quarrels.

    In the Café

    The Viennese café of this era was long remembered as a particularly good place to argue with your friends, to read, and to write. Built to serve an imperial capital, the cafés found themselves with too much space and too few customers now that the Empire was gone. There was no need to turn tables: a café could only survive by coaxing customers to linger. Perhaps they would order another coffee, or one of their friends might drop by. One could play chess, or billiards, or read newspapers from abroad. Coffee was invariably served with a glass of purified spring water, still a novelty in an era in which most water was still unsafe to drink. That water glass would be refilled indefinitely. 

    In the basement of one café, the poet Jura Soyfer staged “The End Of The World,” a musical comedy in which Professor Peep has discovered a comet heading for earth.

    Prof. Peep: The comet is going to destroy everybody!

    Hitler:  Destroying everybody is my business.

    Of course, coffee can be prepared in many ways, and the Viennese café developed a broad vocabulary to represent precisely how one preferred to drink it: melange, Einspänner, Brauner, Schwarzer, Kapuziner. This extensive customization, with correspondingly esoteric conventions of service, established the café as a comfortable and personal third space, a neutral ground in which anyone who could afford a coffee would be welcome. Viennese of this era were fastidious in their use of personal titles, of which an abundance were in common use. Café waiters greeted regular customers with titles too, but were careful to address their patrons with titles a notch or two greater than they deserved. A graduate student would be Doktor, an unpaid postdoc Professor.  This assurance mattered all the more because so many members of the Circle (and so many other Viennese) came from elsewhere: Carnap from Wuppertal, Gödel from Brno, von Neumann from Budapest. No one was going to make fun of your clothes, mannerisms, or accent. Your friends wouldn’t be bothered by the pram in the hall. Everyone shared a Germanic Austrian literary and philosophical culture, not least those whose ancestors had been Eastern European Jews who knew that culture well, having read all about it in books.

    The amiability of the café circle was enhanced by its openness. Because the circle sometimes extended to architects and actors, people could feel less constrained to admit shortfalls in their understanding. It was soon discovered that marble tabletops made a useful surface for pencil sketches, serving all as an improvised and accessible blackboard.

    Comedies like “The End Of The World” and fictional newspaper sketches or feuilletons of writers like Joseph Roth and Stefan Zweig served as a second defense against disagreeable or churlish behavior. The knowledge that, if one got carried away, a parody of one’s remarks might shortly appear in Neue Freie Presse surely helped Professor Schlick keep matters in hand.

    The End Of Red Vienna

    Though Austria’s government drifted to the right after the War, Vienna’s city council had been Socialist, dedicated to public housing based on user-centered design, and embracing  ambitious programs of public outreach and adult education. In 1934 the Socialists lost a local election, and this era soon came to its end as the new administration focused on the imagined threat of the International Jewish Conspiracy. Most members of the Circle fled within months: von Neumann to Princeton, Neurath to Holland and Oxford, Popper to New Zealand, Carnap to Chicago. Prof. Schlick was murdered on the steps of the University by a student outraged by his former association with Jews.  Jura Soyfer, who wrote “The End Of The World,” died in Buchenwald.

    In 1939, von Neumann finally convinced Gödel to accept a job in Princeton. Gödel was required to pay large fines to emigrate. The officer in charge of these fees would look back on this as the best posting of his career; his name was Eichmann.

    Design for Amiability

    An impressive literature recounts those discussions and the environment that facilitated the development of computing. How can we design for amiability?  This is not just a matter of choosing rounded typefaces and a cheerful pastel palette. I believe we may identify eight distinct issues that exert design forces in usefully amiable directions.

    Seriousness: The Vienna Circle was wrestling with a notoriously difficult book—Wittgenstein’s Tractus Logico-Philosophicus—and a catalog of outstanding open questions in mathematics. They were concerned with consequential problems, not merely scoring points for debating. Constant reminders that the questions you are considering matter—not only that they are consequential or that those opposing you are scoundrels—help promote amity.

    Empiricism: The characteristic approach of the Vienna Circle demanded that knowledge be grounded either in direct observation or in rigorous reasoning. Disagreement, when it arose, could be settled by observation or by proof. If neither seemed ready to hand, the matter could not be settled. On these terms, one can seldom if ever demolish an opposing argument, and trolling is pointless.

    Abstraction: Disputes grow worse when losing the argument entails lost face or lost jobs. The Vienna Circle’s focus on theory—the limits of mathematics, the capability of language—promoted amity. Without seriousness, abstraction could have been merely academic, but the limits of reason and the consistency of mathematics were clearly serious.

    Formality: The punctilious demeanor of waiters and the elaborated rituals of coffee service helped to establish orderly attitudes amongst the argumentative participants. This stands in contrast to the contemptuous sneer that now dominates social media.  

    Schlamperei: Members of the Vienna Circle maintained a global correspondence, and they knew their work was at the frontier of research. Still, this was Vienna, at the margins of Europe: old-fashioned, frumpy, and dingy. Many participants came from even more obscure backwaters. Most or all harbored the suspicion that they were really schleppers, and a tinge of the ridiculous helped to moderate tempers. The director of “The End Of The World” had to pass the hat for money to purchase a moon for the set, and thought it was funny enough to write up for publication.

    Openness: All sorts of people were involved in discussion, anyone might join in. Each week would bring different participants. Fluid borders reduce tension, and provide opportunities to broaden the range of discussion and the terms of engagement. Low entrance friction was characteristic of the café: anyone could come, and if you came twice you were virtually a regular. Permeable boundaries and café culture made it easier for moderating influences to draw in raconteurs and storytellers to defuse awkward moments, and Vienna’s cafés had no shortage of humorists. Openness counteracts the suspicion that promoters of amiability are exerting censorship.

    Parody: The environs of the Circle—the university office and the café—were unmistakably public. There were writers about, some of them renowned humorists. The prospect that one’s bad taste or bad behavior might be ridiculed in print kept discussion within bounds. The sanction of public humiliation, however, was itself made mild by the veneer of fiction; even if you got a little carried away and a character based on you made a splash in some newspaper fiction, it wasn’t the end of the world.

    Engagement: The subject matter was important to the participants, but it was esoteric: it did not matter very much to their mothers or their siblings. A small stumble or a minor humiliation could be shrugged off in ways that major media confrontations cannot.

    I believe it is notable that this environment was designed to promote amiability through several different voices.  The café waiter flattered each newcomer and served everyone, and also kept out local pickpockets and drunks who would be mere disruptions. Schlick and other regulars kept discussion moving and on track. The fiction writers and raconteurs—perhaps the most peripheral of the participants—kept people in a good mood and reminded them that bad behavior could make anyone ridiculous.  Crucially, each of these voices were human: you could reason with them. Algorithmic or AI moderators, however clever, are seldom perceived as reasonable. The café circles had no central authority or Moderator against whom everyone’s resentments might be focused. Even after the disaster of 1934, what people remembered were those cheerful arguments.

  • Design Dialects: Breaking the Rules, Not the System

    Design Dialects: Breaking the Rules, Not the System

    “Language is not merely a set of unrelated sounds, clauses, rules, and meanings; it is a totally coherent system bound to context and behavior.” — Kenneth L. Pike

    The web has accents. So should our design systems.

    Design Systems as Living Languages

    Design systems aren’t component libraries—they’re living languages. Tokens are phonemes, components are words, patterns are phrases, layouts are sentences. The conversations we build with users become the stories our products tell.

    But here’s what we’ve forgotten: the more fluently a language is spoken, the more accents it can support without losing meaning. English in Scotland differs from English in Sydney, yet both are unmistakably English. The language adapts to context while preserving core meaning. This couldn’t be more obvious to me, a Brazilian Portuguese speaker, who learned English with an American accent, and lives in Sydney.

    Our design systems must work the same way. Rigid adherence to visual rules creates brittle systems that break under contextual pressure. Fluent systems bend without breaking.

    Consistency becomes a prison

    The promise of design systems was simple: consistent components would accelerate development and unify experiences. But as systems matured and products grew more complex, that promise has become a prison. Teams file “exception” requests by the hundreds. Products launch with workarounds instead of system components. Designers spend more time defending consistency than solving user problems.

    Our design systems must learn to speak dialects.

    A design dialect is a systematic adaptation of a design system that maintains core principles while developing new patterns for specific contexts. Unlike one-off customizations or brand themes, dialects preserve the system’s essential grammar while expanding its vocabulary to serve different users, environments, or constraints.

    When Perfect Consistency Fails

    At Booking.com, I learned this lesson the hard way. We A/B-tested everything—color, copy, button shapes, even logo colors. As a professional with a graphic design education and experience building brand style guides, I found this shocking. While everyone fell in love with Airbnb’s pristine design system, Booking grew into a giant without ever considering visual consistency.  

    The chaos taught me something profound: consistency isn’t ROI; solved problems are.

    At Shopify. Polaris () was our crown jewel—a mature design language perfect for merchants on laptops. As a product team, we were expected to adopt Polaris as-is. Then my fulfillment team hit an “Oh, Ship!” moment, as we faced the challenge of building an app for warehouse pickers using our interface on shared, battered Android scanners in dim aisles, wearing thick gloves, scanning dozens of items per minute, many with limited levels of English understanding.

    Task completion with standard Polaris: 0%.

    Every component that worked beautifully for merchants failed completely for pickers. White backgrounds created glare. 44px tap targets were invisible to gloved fingers. Sentence-case labels took too long to parse. Multi-step flows confused non-native speakers.

    We faced a choice: abandon Polaris entirely, or teach it to speak warehouse.

    The Birth of a Dialect

    We chose evolution over revolution. Working within Polaris’s core principles—clarity, efficiency, consistency—we developed what we now call a design dialect:

    ConstraintFluent MoveRationale
    Glare & low lightDark surfaces + light textReduce glare on low-DPI screens
    Gloves & haste90px tap targets (~2cm)Accommodate thick gloves
    MultilingualSingle-task screens, plain languageReduce cognitive load

    Result: Task completion jumped from 0% to 100%. Onboarding time dropped from three weeks to one shift.

    This wasn’t customization or theming—this was a dialect: a systematic adaptation that maintained Polaris’s core grammar while developing new vocabulary for a specific context. Polaris hadn’t failed; it had learned to speak warehouse.

    The Flexibility Framework

    At Atlassian, working on the Jira platform—itself a system within the larger Atlassian system—I pushed for formalizing this insight. With dozens of products sharing a design language across different codebases, we needed systematic flexibility so we built directly into our ways of working. The old model—exception requests and special approvals—was failing at scale.

    We developed the Flexibility Framework to help designers define how flexible they wanted their components to be:

    TierActionOwnership
    ConsistentAdopt unchangedPlatform locks design + code
    OpinionatedAdapt within boundsPlatform provides smart defaults, products customize
    FlexibleExtend freelyPlatform defines behavior, products own presentation

    During a navigation redesign, we tiered every element. Logo and global search stayed Consistent. Breadcrumbs and contextual actions became Flexible. Product teams could immediately see where innovation was welcome and where consistency mattered.

    The Decision Ladder

    Flexibility needs boundaries. We created a simple ladder for evaluating when rules should bend:

    Good: Ship with existing system components. Fast, consistent, proven.

    Better: Stretch a component slightly. Document the change. Contribute improvements back to the system for all to use.

    Best: Prototype the ideal experience first. If user testing validates the benefit, update the system to support it.

    The key question: “Which option lets users succeed fastest?”

    Rules are tools, not relics.

    Unity Beats Uniformity

    Gmail, Drive, and Maps are unmistakably Google—yet each speaks with its own accent. They achieve unity through shared principles, not cloned components. One extra week of debate over button color costs roughly $30K in engineer time.

    Unity is a brand outcome; fluency is a user outcome. When the two clash, side with the user.

    Governance Without Gates

    How do you maintain coherence while enabling dialects? Treat your system like a living vocabulary:

    Document every deviation – e.g., dialects/warehouse.md with before/after screenshots and rationale.

    Promote shared patterns – when three teams adopt a dialect independently, review it for core inclusion.

    Deprecate with context – retire old idioms via flags and migration notes, never a big-bang purge.

    A living dictionary scales better than a frozen rulebook.

    Start Small: Your First Dialect

    Ready to introduce dialects? Start with one broken experience:

    This week: Find one user flow where perfect consistency blocks task completion. Could be mobile users struggling with desktop-sized components, or accessibility needs your standard patterns don’t address.

    Document the context: What makes standard patterns fail here? Environmental constraints? User capabilities? Task urgency?

    Design one systematic change: Focus on behavior over aesthetics. If gloves are the problem, bigger targets aren’t “”breaking the system””—they’re serving the user. Earn the variations and make them intentional.

    Test and measure: Does the change improve task completion? Time to productivity? User satisfaction?

    Show the savings: If that dialect frees even half a sprint, fluency has paid for itself.

    Beyond the Component Library

    We’re not managing design systems anymore—we’re cultivating design languages. Languages that grow with their speakers. Languages that develop accents without losing meaning. Languages that serve human needs over aesthetic ideals.

    The warehouse workers who went from 0% to 100% task completion didn’t care that our buttons broke the style guide. They cared that the buttons finally worked.

    Your users feel the same way. Give your system permission to speak their language.

  • An Holistic Framework for Shared Design Leadership

    An Holistic Framework for Shared Design Leadership

    Picture this: You’re in a meeting room at your tech company, and two people are having what looks like the same conversation about the same design problem. One is talking about whether the team has the right skills to tackle it. The other is diving deep into whether the solution actually solves the user’s problem. Same room, same problem, completely different lenses.

    This is the beautiful, sometimes messy reality of having both a Design Manager and a Lead Designer on the same team. And if you’re wondering how to make this work without creating confusion, overlap, or the dreaded “too many cooks” scenario, you’re asking the right question.

    The traditional answer has been to draw clean lines on an org chart. The Design Manager handles people, the Lead Designer handles craft. Problem solved, right? Except clean org charts are fantasy. In reality, both roles care deeply about team health, design quality, and shipping great work. 

    The magic happens when you embrace the overlap instead of fighting it—when you start thinking of your design org as a design organism.

    The Anatomy of a Healthy Design Team

    Here’s what I’ve learned from years of being on both sides of this equation: think of your design team as a living organism. The Design Manager tends to the mind (the psychological safety, the career growth, the team dynamics). The Lead Designer tends to the body (the craft skills, the design standards, the hands-on work that ships to users).

    But just like mind and body aren’t completely separate systems, so, too, do these roles overlap in important ways. You can’t have a healthy person without both working in harmony. The trick is knowing where those overlaps are and how to navigate them gracefully.

    When we look at how healthy teams actually function, three critical systems emerge. Each requires both roles to work together, but with one taking primary responsibility for keeping that system strong.

    The Nervous System: People & Psychology

    Primary caretaker: Design Manager
    Supporting role: Lead Designer

    The nervous system is all about signals, feedback, and psychological safety. When this system is healthy, information flows freely, people feel safe to take risks, and the team can adapt quickly to new challenges.

    The Design Manager is the primary caretaker here. They’re monitoring the team’s psychological pulse, ensuring feedback loops are healthy, and creating the conditions for people to grow. They’re hosting career conversations, managing workload, and making sure no one burns out.

    But the Lead Designer plays a crucial supporting role. They’re providing sensory input about craft development needs, spotting when someone’s design skills are stagnating, and helping identify growth opportunities that the Design Manager might miss.

    Design Manager tends to:

    • Career conversations and growth planning
    • Team psychological safety and dynamics
    • Workload management and resource allocation
    • Performance reviews and feedback systems
    • Creating learning opportunities

    Lead Designer supports by:

    • Providing craft-specific feedback on team member development
    • Identifying design skill gaps and growth opportunities
    • Offering design mentorship and guidance
    • Signaling when team members are ready for more complex challenges

    The Muscular System: Craft & Execution

    Primary caretaker: Lead Designer
    Supporting role: Design Manager

    The muscular system is about strength, coordination, and skill development. When this system is healthy, the team can execute complex design work with precision, maintain consistent quality, and adapt their craft to new challenges.

    The Lead Designer is the primary caretaker here. They’re setting design standards, providing craft coaching, and ensuring that shipping work meets the quality bar. They’re the ones who can tell you if a design decision is sound or if we’re solving the right problem.

    But the Design Manager plays a crucial supporting role. They’re ensuring the team has the resources and support to do their best craft work, like proper nutrition and recovery time for an athlete.

    Lead Designer tends to:

    • Definition of design standards and system usage
    • Feedback on what design work meets the standard
    • Experience direction for the product
    • Design decisions and product-wide alignment
    • Innovation and craft advancement

    Design Manager supports by:

    • Ensuring design standards are understood and adopted across the team
    • Confirming experience direction is being followed
    • Supporting practices and systems that scale without bottlenecking
    • Facilitating design alignment across teams
    • Providing resources and removing obstacles to great craft work

    The Circulatory System: Strategy & Flow

    Shared caretakers: Both Design Manager and Lead Designer

    The circulatory system is about how information, decisions, and energy flow through the team. When this system is healthy, strategic direction is clear, priorities are aligned, and the team can respond quickly to new opportunities or challenges.

    This is where true partnership happens. Both roles are responsible for keeping the circulation strong, but they’re bringing different perspectives to the table.

    Lead Designer contributes:

    • User needs are met by the product
    • Overall product quality and experience
    • Strategic design initiatives
    • Research-based user needs for each initiative

    Design Manager contributes:

    • Communication to team and stakeholders
    • Stakeholder management and alignment
    • Cross-functional team accountability
    • Strategic business initiatives

    Both collaborate on:

    • Co-creation of strategy with leadership
    • Team goals and prioritization approach
    • Organizational structure decisions
    • Success measures and frameworks

    Keeping the Organism Healthy

    The key to making this partnership sing is understanding that all three systems need to work together. A team with great craft skills but poor psychological safety will burn out. A team with great culture but weak craft execution will ship mediocre work. A team with both but poor strategic circulation will work hard on the wrong things.

    Be Explicit About Which System You’re Tending

    When you’re in a meeting about a design problem, it helps to acknowledge which system you’re primarily focused on. “I’m thinking about this from a team capacity perspective” (nervous system) or “I’m looking at this through the lens of user needs” (muscular system) gives everyone context for your input.

    This isn’t about staying in your lane. It’s about being transparent as to which lens you’re using, so the other person knows how to best add their perspective.

    Create Healthy Feedback Loops

    The most successful partnerships I’ve seen establish clear feedback loops between the systems:

    Nervous system signals to muscular system: “The team is struggling with confidence in their design skills” → Lead Designer provides more craft coaching and clearer standards.

    Muscular system signals to nervous system: “The team’s craft skills are advancing faster than their project complexity” → Design Manager finds more challenging growth opportunities.

    Both systems signal to circulatory system: “We’re seeing patterns in team health and craft development that suggest we need to adjust our strategic priorities.”

    Handle Handoffs Gracefully

    The most critical moments in this partnership are when something moves from one system to another. This might be when a design standard (muscular system) needs to be rolled out across the team (nervous system), or when a strategic initiative (circulatory system) needs specific craft execution (muscular system).

    Make these transitions explicit. “I’ve defined the new component standards. Can you help me think through how to get the team up to speed?” or “We’ve agreed on this strategic direction. I’m going to focus on the specific user experience approach from here.”

    Stay Curious, Not Territorial

    The Design Manager who never thinks about craft, or the Lead Designer who never considers team dynamics, is like a doctor who only looks at one body system. Great design leadership requires both people to care about the whole organism, even when they’re not the primary caretaker.

    This means asking questions rather than making assumptions. “What do you think about the team’s craft development in this area?” or “How do you see this impacting team morale and workload?” keeps both perspectives active in every decision.

    When the Organism Gets Sick

    Even with clear roles, this partnership can go sideways. Here are the most common failure modes I’ve seen:

    System Isolation

    The Design Manager focuses only on the nervous system and ignores craft development. The Lead Designer focuses only on the muscular system and ignores team dynamics. Both people retreat to their comfort zones and stop collaborating.

    The symptoms: Team members get mixed messages, work quality suffers, morale drops.

    The treatment: Reconnect around shared outcomes. What are you both trying to achieve? Usually it’s great design work that ships on time from a healthy team. Figure out how both systems serve that goal.

    Poor Circulation

    Strategic direction is unclear, priorities keep shifting, and neither role is taking responsibility for keeping information flowing.

    The symptoms: Team members are confused about priorities, work gets duplicated or dropped, deadlines are missed.

    The treatment: Explicitly assign responsibility for circulation. Who’s communicating what to whom? How often? What’s the feedback loop?

    Autoimmune Response

    One person feels threatened by the other’s expertise. The Design Manager thinks the Lead Designer is undermining their authority. The Lead Designer thinks the Design Manager doesn’t understand craft.

    The symptoms: Defensive behavior, territorial disputes, team members caught in the middle.

    The treatment: Remember that you’re both caretakers of the same organism. When one system fails, the whole team suffers. When both systems are healthy, the team thrives.

    The Payoff

    Yes, this model requires more communication. Yes, it requires both people to be secure enough to share responsibility for team health. But the payoff is worth it: better decisions, stronger teams, and design work that’s both excellent and sustainable.

    When both roles are healthy and working well together, you get the best of both worlds: deep craft expertise and strong people leadership. When one person is out sick, on vacation, or overwhelmed, the other can help maintain the team’s health. When a decision requires both the people perspective and the craft perspective, you’ve got both right there in the room.

    Most importantly, the framework scales. As your team grows, you can apply the same system thinking to new challenges. Need to launch a design system? Lead Designer tends to the muscular system (standards and implementation), Design Manager tends to the nervous system (team adoption and change management), and both tend to circulation (communication and stakeholder alignment).

    The Bottom Line

    The relationship between a Design Manager and Lead Designer isn’t about dividing territories. It’s about multiplying impact. When both roles understand they’re tending to different aspects of the same healthy organism, magic happens.

    The mind and body work together. The team gets both the strategic thinking and the craft excellence they need. And most importantly, the work that ships to users benefits from both perspectives.

    So the next time you’re in that meeting room, wondering why two people are talking about the same problem from different angles, remember: you’re watching shared leadership in action. And if it’s working well, both the mind and body of your design team are getting stronger.

  • From Beta to Bedrock: Build Products that Stick.

    From Beta to Bedrock: Build Products that Stick.

    As a product builder over too many years to mention, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen promising ideas go from zero to hero in a few weeks, only to fizzle out within months.

    Financial products, which is the field I work in, are no exception. With people’s real hard-earned money on the line, user expectations running high, and a crowded market, it’s tempting to throw as many features at the wall as possible and hope something sticks. But this approach is a recipe for disaster. Here’s why:

    The pitfalls of feature-first development

    When you start building a financial product from the ground up, or are migrating existing customer journeys from paper or telephony channels onto online banking or mobile apps, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of creating new features. You might think, “If I can just add one more thing that solves this particular user problem, they’ll love me!” But what happens when you inevitably hit a roadblock because the narcs (your security team!) don’t like it? When a hard-fought feature isn’t as popular as you thought, or it breaks due to unforeseen complexity?

    This is where the concept of Minimum Viable Product (MVP) comes in. Jason Fried’s book Getting Real and his podcast Rework often touch on this idea, even if he doesn’t always call it that. An MVP is a product that provides just enough value to your users to keep them engaged, but not so much that it becomes overwhelming or difficult to maintain. It sounds like an easy concept but it requires a razor sharp eye, a ruthless edge and having the courage to stick by your opinion because it is easy to be seduced by “the Columbo Effect”… when there’s always “just one more thing…” that someone wants to add.

    The problem with most finance apps, however, is that they often become a reflection of the internal politics of the business rather than an experience solely designed around the customer. This means that the focus is on delivering as many features and functionalities as possible to satisfy the needs and desires of competing internal departments, rather than providing a clear value proposition that is focused on what the people out there in the real world want. As a result, these products can very easily bloat to become a mixed bag of confusing, unrelated and ultimately unlovable customer experiences—a feature salad, you might say.

    The importance of bedrock

    So what’s a better approach? How can we build products that are stable, user-friendly, and—most importantly—stick?

    That’s where the concept of “bedrock” comes in. Bedrock is the core element of your product that truly matters to users. It’s the fundamental building block that provides value and stays relevant over time.

    In the world of retail banking, which is where I work, the bedrock has got to be in and around the regular servicing journeys. People open their current account once in a blue moon but they look at it every day. They sign up for a credit card every year or two, but they check their balance and pay their bill at least once a month.

    Identifying the core tasks that people want to do and then relentlessly striving to make them easy to do, dependable, and trustworthy is where the gravy’s at.

    But how do you get to bedrock? By focusing on the “MVP” approach, prioritizing simplicity, and iterating towards a clear value proposition. This means cutting out unnecessary features and focusing on delivering real value to your users.

    It also means having some guts, because your colleagues might not always instantly share your vision to start with. And controversially, sometimes it can even mean making it clear to customers that you’re not going to come to their house and make their dinner. The occasional “opinionated user interface design” (i.e. clunky workaround for edge cases) might sometimes be what you need to use to test a concept or buy you space to work on something more important.

    Practical strategies for building financial products that stick

    So what are the key strategies I’ve learned from my own experience and research?

    1. Start with a clear “why”: What problem are you trying to solve? For whom? Make sure your mission is crystal clear before building anything. Make sure it aligns with your company’s objectives, too.
    2. Focus on a single, core feature and obsess on getting that right before moving on to something else: Resist the temptation to add too many features at once. Instead, choose one that delivers real value and iterate from there.
    3. Prioritize simplicity over complexity: Less is often more when it comes to financial products. Cut out unnecessary bells and whistles and keep the focus on what matters most.
    4. Embrace continuous iteration: Bedrock isn’t a fixed destination—it’s a dynamic process. Continuously gather user feedback, refine your product, and iterate towards that bedrock state.
    5. Stop, look and listen: Don’t just test your product as part of your delivery process—test it repeatedly in the field. Use it yourself. Run A/B tests. Gather user feedback. Talk to people who use it, and refine accordingly.

    The bedrock paradox

    There’s an interesting paradox at play here: building towards bedrock means sacrificing some short-term growth potential in favour of long-term stability. But the payoff is worth it—products built with a focus on bedrock will outlast and outperform their competitors, and deliver sustained value to users over time.

    So, how do you start your journey towards bedrock? Take it one step at a time. Start by identifying those core elements that truly matter to your users. Focus on building and refining a single, powerful feature that delivers real value. And above all, test obsessively—for, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, Alan Kay, or Peter Drucker (whomever you believe!!), “The best way to predict the future is to create it.”

  • How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait

    How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait

    How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

    Catch the full episode:   Episode Overview In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes back bestselling author, keynote speaker, and communication expert Carmine Gallo to discuss his latest audio-original book, Viral Voices: From TED Talks to TikTok. Carmine shares powerful insights into how persuasive communication principles, rooted in ancient […]

    How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

    Catch the full episode:

     

    Carmine GalloEpisode Overview

    In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes back bestselling author, keynote speaker, and communication expert Carmine Gallo to discuss his latest audio-original book, Viral Voices: From TED Talks to TikTok. Carmine shares powerful insights into how persuasive communication principles, rooted in ancient rhetoric and modern neuroscience, can help anyone break through the noise in today’s fast-paced digital world. Whether you’re a marketer, entrepreneur, or aspiring thought leader, this episode unpacks why storytelling, structure, and a strong hook are more essential than ever.

    Guest Bio

    Carmine Gallo is a renowned communication coach, author, and former journalist. As president of Gallo Communications Group, he helps business leaders, entrepreneurs, and changemakers craft compelling messages. His previous bestsellers include Talk Like TED and The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. His latest project, Viral Voices, is an audio-first book produced with Macmillan Audio that explores the art of persuasion in the era of digital content. Carmine contributes to Forbes and is a frequent speaker on communication strategy.

    Key Takeaways

    • Why Audio-Originals Matter: Carmine explains the power of creating a book specifically designed for audio, blending performance, storytelling, and neuroscience for a richer experience.
    • The Neuroscience of Attention: From movement on screen to sentence structure, learn what actually hooks attention based on how our brains are wired.
    • The Timeless Power of Storytelling: Discover how ancient principles from Aristotle’s three-act structure to the hero’s journey still shape today’s most engaging content.
    • AI vs. Human Creativity: Why AI struggles with creativity and why human imagination and emotional storytelling remain irreplaceable.
    • Practical Tips for Marketers: How to structure your message, craft irresistible hooks, and use contrast and simplicity to persuade effectively on any platform.

    Great Moments in the Episode

    • (01:22) – Why Carmine chose to make Viral Voices an audio-first book
    • (03:41) – The JFK speech breakdown: what makes a phrase “sticky”
    • (04:43) – Why the rules of persuasion haven’t changed, even if the platforms have
    • (06:14) – The ancient origins and modern power of storytelling
    • (08:03) – How Mr. Beast and Sahil Bloom use Aristotle’s three-act structure
    • (10:29) – Nvidia’s origin story: How Jensen Huang hooks an audience
    • (12:21) – Why movement grabs attention and what marketers can learn from neuroscience
    • (16:48) – AI can’t think different: What makes human communication irreplaceable
    • (20:13) – Richard Branson’s balloon crash: Why failure makes a better story

    Notable Quotes

    “If you learn the ancient art of persuasion, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s TikTok, a TED Talk, or PowerPoint.”

    “AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning.”

    Where to Listen

    Viral Voices is available on Spotify and major audiobook platforms.

    Connect with Carmine Gallo

    John Jantsch (00:00.856)

    Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Carmine Gallo. He is an American author, communication coach, keynote speaker, and former journalist news anchor with decades of experience helping leaders communicate ideas that stick. He is the president of Gallo Communications Group and a contributor to places like Forbes Leadership Council, or channel, I should say.

    He’s been on the show for some of his previous books. I think it was talk like Ted, at least. And today we’re going to talk about his newest book, Viral Voices from Ted Talks to TikTok, Persuasive Communication Skills for the Digital Age. So welcome, Carmen.

    Carmine Gallo (00:29.527)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (00:43.19)

    John, thank you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and Duct Tape Marketing. Glad to see you’re still going strong since we last spoke about Talk Like Ted, which was a few years back.

    John Jantsch (00:53.134)

    Yeah. I thought you were going to say congratulations on like making it this long, you know, but, uh, but, uh, yeah, no, I’ve, I’ve, uh, I started my show in 2005. I just really thought it was going to be a cool medium. And, uh, so it, it, it is probably one of the longer running, you know, business marketing shows. So that’s why I’ve, you know, I people that I’ve had out on five, six times, you know, because they’ve written books, that many books over that period of time. So one of things I want to hit first is, um, this is an

    Carmine Gallo (00:57.512)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (01:05.156)

    Mm-mm.

    John Jantsch (01:22.636)

    what you’re calling an audio original book. And I think that’s kind of fascinating because it, know, most people just write a book and then the publisher says, well, let’s get that in a different format and make it audio. I will say that it’s come a long way. You know, now people are making them a little more performance based and their sound effects and things like that. But why’d you choose to go this route?

    Carmine Gallo (01:47.16)

    Isn’t it fascinating because you know me, I love to learn new things, experiment with new platforms. And so Viral Voices is what’s called an audiobook original that I wrote and produced in partnership with Macmillan Audio, which is a giant New York based publishing audiobook publisher. Unlike a traditional audiobook, which is in most cases a printed book read aloud,

    John Jantsch (01:48.515)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (01:57.464)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (02:05.72)

    Right, sure.

    John Jantsch (02:14.167)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (02:14.352)

    And unlike what you do, which is an ongoing podcast, an audio original is 10 to 12 episodes on a specific topic written and produced entirely from scratch for the audio listener on Spotify and wherever people get their audio books. I think you’ll appreciate this, John, through exclusive interviews that I was able to conduct, but also using archived audio.

    and archived speeches and history, I have the flexibility and the creativity to really dive deeper into advanced communication tactics like storytelling or vocal delivery or frankly the art and the science of persuasion. So for example, I was just thinking about this recently. I got to use archival sound of John F. Kennedy’s famous line in his inaugural speech, ask not

    what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Then we cut to neuroscientists who I interviewed, who explain why that line sticks. Why is it sticky? Why is it one of the most memorable lines of the 20th century? Because of things like contrast, placing two opposing ideas back to back, symmetry. Both parts of the line are exactly the same in terms of syllables. Things like

    John Jantsch (03:24.558)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (03:41.248)

    replacing long words with short words, et cetera. So how does that apply to today? Well, if you think about AI, for example, what is the most common expression that you’ve heard recently on AI? And I bet you’ve heard this before. AI won’t replace you. Someone who uses AI will. John, it’s the same sentence. That is an example of contrast.

    John Jantsch (04:00.238)

    I’ve said it. I’ve said it.

    Yeah,

    Carmine Gallo (04:11.029)

    And so you’ve said it, I’ve said it. I’ve heard Mark Cuban say it. I’ve heard Sam Altman say it. But again, what’s fascinating to me about this whole journey that I’ve been on over the last couple of years is that you can learn, if you learn the ancient art of persuasion, the ancient art, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s on TikTok or a Ted stage or using PowerPoint, again, digital.

    Because the tools of communication have changed, the human brain has not. Understand the fundamental science behind persuasion and you’ll be able to adapt to any new platform.

    John Jantsch (04:43.874)

    Yes.

    John Jantsch (04:50.978)

    Yeah, I mean

    let’s go how far you want to go back caveman Aristotle. mean, they’re they’re known for actually persuasion. And you know, as you said, I mean, that’s really what they were capable of doing. And I do think, especially people that came up in the digital age, I think that a lot of marketers are like, no, the tools are it it changes everything. And it really is true. mean, fundamentally, we’ve got to get somebody who has a need to trust us enough to give them give us their money. I mean, that’s it, right?

    Carmine Gallo (05:20.203)

    Okay, here’s something I’ll tell all the marketers today. What’s the buzzword in marketing today? Storytelling. Well, I interviewed Yuval Noah Harari, a historian and an author of one of the most famous non-fiction books in the world, Sapiens. And he said that storytelling was a fundamental component of how our species became the apex predator, the dominant species of the world.

    John Jantsch (05:35.534)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (05:48.482)

    because we had the unique ability to tell stories that encourage a large group of people to cooperate with one another. So folks, you did not invent storytelling. This goes back hundreds of thousands of years. But what’s fascinating to me is when I get to interview influencers and content creators who may not even know all that history.

    John Jantsch (05:58.242)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (06:14.093)

    but they’re still using the same tactics of storytelling that we’ve known about through hundreds of thousands of years. That’s interesting to me.

    John Jantsch (06:22.786)

    Yeah, mean, storytelling evolved before there was a written language. So there was no way to write down a story. It was passed from person elder to the next person. And I think you’re absolutely 100 % right. What are some of the best communicators? I know you talk a lot about Obama in the book, I think. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (06:47.521)

    Yeah, a little, yeah. I do a little bit because I interviewed Obama’s former speech writer. So it’s more about the words, why they use certain words. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (06:53.562)

    Yeah, yeah, Yeah, so what do they do that’s sort of radically different than, you know, especially marketers who are just tying in the hot cup product?

    Carmine Gallo (07:04.915)

    right now, especially, it’s really important that not only do you study great communicators of the past, but also take a look at the content creators and the influencers and digital marketers who do seem to get it right. And they’re creating really interesting, creative, and compelling video. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is a perfect example.

    John Jantsch (07:12.716)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (07:28.905)

    Mr. Beast, mean.

    Carmine Gallo (07:34.188)

    Gary Vaynerchuk often talks about the importance of telling a story. But here’s the interesting part. If you go back throughout history, you’ll know, and you know this, but not everybody does, John. This whole idea of having a storytelling structure, storytelling structure like the three acts structure goes back to Aristotle, all famous Hollywood films, nearly all of them fall into the three act structure. And that is set up, conflict, resolution. Here’s the status quo.

    John Jantsch (07:38.327)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (08:03.617)

    Here’s the world in which the hero lives in the ordinary world. Here’s the problem they face and here’s how they are going to resolve the problem and everybody lives happily ever after. Well, I started interviewing people who had a former career like Sahil Bloom is one of the guests who I’ve interviewed. Sahil Bloom was a finance guy on Wall Street and then created a newsletter and now has quite a popular and strong following on Instagram.

    where he explains these complex financial topics in ways that people can understand. So I said, me through the structure. Mr. Beast has a similar structure. Here’s the way the world exists today. Here’s the status quo. Here’s what you’ve been doing. Here’s why if you continue to do what you’ve been doing, you’re gonna fall behind. And here’s the solution that you’ve been searching for. That’s how you get people hooked on a video. Hooked, that’s the other word they use.

    John Jantsch (08:59.682)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (09:01.707)

    All good content creators use the word hook. How am I going to hook you? More often than not, they are talking about the three act structure. Often not even knowing that it’s the three act structure that goes back to Aristotle. So I think if you understand storytelling, not just the buzzword, you can’t just say, well, tell a story. No, be deliberate about what that means. What does it mean to tell a story? What does it mean to have a structure?

    By following these simple structures, you’ll be able to adapt into almost any means, especially on social media. You can create a short form video that’s perfectly adapted to the three act structure. But you need to understand the structure first, which is why I have one episode that’s just on the three act structure. I have another episode that talks about scenes within three act structure. And I’ll use people like Jensen Huang.

    Jensen Wong may not be his household name, but Nvidia sure is. He’s the CEO and founder of Nvidia. Listen to his interviews, John. It’s quite fascinating. He always talks about starting at Denny’s. When people ask him about Nvidia and the founding of Nvidia and how it was created, he doesn’t start by talking about, it’s the first $5 trillion company and here are all the chips that we make that power the AI world.

    John Jantsch (10:03.918)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (10:13.358)

    Mm.

    Carmine Gallo (10:29.813)

    Instead, he said, it all started at Denny’s, where me and a handful of, you know, and a couple of other friends met at the diner over pancakes and coffee. And we came up with this idea that eventually became Nvidia. But he repeats it in almost every interview. That to me is a hero’s journey. He’s not starting from the conclusion. He’s starting from the beginning. Where does the origin, the spark start? And you know this.

    John Jantsch (10:47.043)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (10:59.955)

    and all, most of the people listening to this know it better than average. If a story starts with humble beginnings, it’s more interesting on that arc. And that arc, by the way, at Nvidia has a lot of ups and downs too. And he takes people through this arc until today. That to me, that tells me he’s a storyteller. It makes people more interesting and engaging.

    as marketers or speakers if you understand how to tell a powerful story.

    John Jantsch (11:30.712)

    So you mentioned the idea of a hook. And I think a lot of people use that in a lot of ways it’s become so important because attention is so fleeting. And so the idea of a hook is it’s like, give me three seconds. You got three seconds to tell me why I should listen to this, right? How, unfortunately that sometimes leads to clickbait and to, you know, to really abuse of that idea. So how do you use that effectively?

    Carmine Gallo (11:44.099)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (11:52.097)

    Hmm? Sure.

    Carmine Gallo (11:57.56)

    First of all, it’s not new. I asked all these questions of neuroscientists and people who actually do a lot of brain research. None of this is new. John, do you know how nowadays people say movement? If you’re doing something on TikTok, it’ll stop the scroll. So you’ll have women putting on makeup while they’re talking, right? Yeah, they’re walking.

    John Jantsch (11:59.618)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:05.453)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:15.896)

    Sure.

    or just even walking while they’re holding their camera, right? Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (12:21.613)

    You’re walking talk, right. Well, guess what? John Medina, a famous molecular biologist who’s been studying the brain for some four decades told me, Carmine, that’s not surprising because movement captures your attention. It’s evolutionary. If something is moving, it could be a threat. Therefore, you focus on it. That’s the hook. They’re calling it a hook, but the point has always been the same.

    John Jantsch (12:38.328)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:45.058)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:49.122)

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (12:51.491)

    People want to know almost immediately. Now, let’s separate this from the movement. I don’t want to get too confusing, but the hook is absolutely right. Whether it’s three seconds or seven seconds, there’s a lot of questions about that research as well. So don’t just say it’s three seconds or seven. No one really knows what it is, but it sounds good. Sort of like the 10,000, you know 10,000 steps.

    John Jantsch (13:03.647)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (13:10.028)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (13:17.006)

    Well, I’ve always… Right.

    Carmine Gallo (13:21.123)

    Doesn’t necessarily, it’s more like 7,300 steps, but 10,000 sounds better. Okay, so let’s go with three or seven seconds. I’ve talked to neuroscientists who say this is not surprising because within the first few seconds of meeting somebody new, the brain is asking questions. Who is this person? Should I trust this person, friend or foe? And the other question it’s asking is, should I consume energy listening?

    John Jantsch (13:27.65)

    me.

    John Jantsch (13:37.57)

    Yes. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (13:45.154)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (13:50.862)

    to this person. Of course, hook. That’s a good point. Look, I don’t care if you start within three seconds or seven seconds, but I think the point is well established. Grab people’s attention early. You’re not writing a mystery novel where you have to save the whodunit for the end. Grab people’s attention early.

    John Jantsch (13:52.79)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (14:09.242)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Character development needs to be later. Right. You know, I’ve always said, cause a lot of times people say, how long should my video be? And I think this is the same, the true of the hook is your hook can be as long as it is not boring, as it is entertaining, as it is addressing the problem that I’m trying to fix. mean, so I think that’s how you have to look at it is people tune out cause they’re like, this isn’t for me.

    Carmine Gallo (14:33.795)

    Exactly. People don’t tune out because it’s an hour long podcast. They tune out because it’s boring. And I think you bring up a good point. I actually like podcasts like yours that are more like 20 minutes, because frankly, it is hard to keep people’s attention for more than 10 to 20 minutes. So you’d have to be really good, have an enormously compelling guest or topic.

    John Jantsch (14:36.59)

    Heck no. Right.

    John Jantsch (14:47.714)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (14:53.55)

    Yeah, that is.

    Carmine Gallo (15:02.787)

    But most people in general, and this is something else that’s well established in the science literature, will tune out of a presentation, no matter how interesting it is, after about 10 to 20 minutes. So again, why go on for an hour? If you’re giving a PowerPoint presentation to your boss, to a team, and they give you 45 minutes, don’t take 45 minutes. Deliver it in 15 minutes.

    wait for the Q &A and if everybody gets done in 25 minutes, they’ll be much happier because they got some time back during their day.

    John Jantsch (15:33.996)

    Yeah, you’re hero. So from the neuroscience, were there any surprising insights that particularly are ones that most leaders overlook when they’re trying to be persuasive?

    Carmine Gallo (15:48.17)

    Yeah, there were so many. One of the reasons why I really enjoy doing this whole project is because I learned a lot of things I didn’t know. And I’m obsessed with this. I’ve been studying storytelling and communication skills and writing about it for more than 20 years, for about two decades now. I’m obsessed with it. I thought I knew a lot. There are a lot of things that I did not know, especially when it comes to the neuroscience of AI.

    John Jantsch (15:49.742)

    Come

    John Jantsch (16:11.822)

    you

    Carmine Gallo (16:18.667)

    And I think this is key. well, the reason why I didn’t know is because it is new. Most people don’t know this stuff. And if anyone ever tells you that they’re an AI expert and they know exactly how to crack the algorithm, don’t believe it. Don’t believe it. Because no one really does know. It changes every day. But the neuroscientists will tell you that here’s the interesting thing about AI.

    John Jantsch (16:23.854)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (16:34.117)

    Yeah. Well, it’s also changes every day too, so.

    Carmine Gallo (16:48.291)

    AI, as most of you know, most of your listeners know, does not have imagination. So set aside that whole argument about is it conscious? Is it sentient? Is it emotional? Is it human? No. No, they say. Most scientists, most neuroscientists, kind of, you know, they dismiss all that talk because they know what’s different. But here’s what they taught me.

    John Jantsch (16:56.43)

    you

    John Jantsch (17:04.714)

    Is it even intelligence? Right?

    John Jantsch (17:14.946)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (17:18.527)

    And here’s a great example. I have this in the Viral Voices audiobook. Did you know that if Steve Jobs had asked ChatGPT to come up with an ad campaign for Apple, it would not have written, think different, and then connect think different to real people like Albert Einstein and Nelson Mandela like the now famous Apple ad.

    And so I asked some AI experts or people who study AI or work for chat, GBT and open AI, why? Why would it have not come up with something like Steve Jobs did? And they said, because that’s too creative. AI, here’s what I was told. AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning. So think different works.

    John Jantsch (18:02.604)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (18:09.837)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (18:14.999)

    precisely because it breaks the rules. And that catches people’s attention because people like rule breakers, like Steve Jobs. It’s really fascinating, John. But if you start delegating everything to AI and not using it simply as a great tool to speed up content creation, to analyze, to research, to help you improve, if you start delegating too much, you lose your authentic human voice.

    John Jantsch (18:23.758)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (18:44.631)

    And then everything becomes AI slop. You you’ve heard of that term, right? AI generated content. So I think to survive, to thrive, especially in marketing today, you’ve got to stand out. You’ve got to be distinct. How? Be uniquely human and celebrate and amplify your uniquely human voice.

    John Jantsch (18:44.845)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (18:48.396)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (19:01.197)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (19:07.886)

    So in these books, this is a terribly unfair question, but in these books where people do lot of interviews with people, I always like to say, who is your favorite or most enjoyable interview?

    Carmine Gallo (19:18.519)

    Yeah. Richard Branson. I have Richard Branson in this audio book too. Richard Branson loves storytelling and of my, and you know, he’s, he’s just a fun guy. He’s really down to earth for being a guy who’s worth billions of dollars and who created Virgin. But he told me the funniest story that I have in this audio book. And that’s what I liked about audio books. I could actually talk to people and you get to hear their voice, not just.

    John Jantsch (19:22.496)

    Okay.

    John Jantsch (19:29.666)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (19:38.092)

    Right, right.

    John Jantsch (19:45.536)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (19:48.483)

    printed quote. And so Richard Branson told me that, yeah, it’s very important to grab attention through the stories you tell. And he was talking about marketing and all that. And he said that when his, tried to, he was on a hot air balloon and he was trying to break the transatlantic record for crossing the Atlantic in a hot air balloon. And the first time it crashed, it crashed off the coast of Ireland. And it was, you know,

    John Jantsch (19:56.43)

    you

    Carmine Gallo (20:13.858)

    pretty dramatic. And so I’ve got some news footage, archival news footage from the scene. They almost lost their lives. I mean, it was pretty, it was very serious. But then Richard Branson, and only the way Branson can, said, actually it turned out to be a better story than if I had succeeded because we crashed into the Atlantic. And he goes, and if you take a look at the news footage, the last thing you see going down is a big hot air balloon with Virgin on it. And he said,

    John Jantsch (20:17.495)

    Mm.

    Yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:30.606)

    Sure.

    John Jantsch (20:38.126)

    Virgin.

    Carmine Gallo (20:43.18)

    Carmine, a good story is not always a straight success story. You need tension, you need the mistakes and failures along the way. Brilliant, brilliant, but he was looking at it from a marketing perspective, he said, it was a much better story.

    John Jantsch (20:47.054)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:54.691)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:59.854)

    Well, Carl, and I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, learn about your work and maybe even find a copy of Viral Voices?

    Carmine Gallo (21:11.618)

    It’s a viral voices will be available on Spotify and any place you get your podcast. And if you’d like to know more about me or simply contact me, if you can remember a good Italian name like Carmine Gallo, I’m very easy to find on the internet. You can go to carminegallo.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I love that platform as well.

    John Jantsch (21:23.265)

    you

    John Jantsch (21:30.42)

    I remember my parents did not drink much, but if they drank, it was Gallo wine. Awesome. Well, well again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

    Carmine Gallo (21:36.226)

    There’s a lot better wine these days, but I appreciate it. But I like my wine too.

    Carmine Gallo (21:50.092)

    You bet. Thanks, John.

    powered by

  • How to Build a Complete Marketing Strategy That Drives Results: The Duct Tape Marketing Engine Framework

    How to Build a Complete Marketing Strategy That Drives Results: The Duct Tape Marketing Engine Framework

    How to Build a Complete Marketing Strategy That Drives Results: The Duct Tape Marketing Engine Framework written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

    A Practical Guide to Building Your Brand, Attracting Ideal Customers, and Creating Remarkable Customer Experiences Table of Contents Introduction: Why Most Marketing Fails The Duct Tape Strategy Pyramid Engine 1: Building a Value-Aligned Brand Engine Engine 2: Installing a Growth Engine That Converts Engine 3: Delivering a Customer Experience Engine That Wows Connecting the Engines […]

    How to Capture Attention Without Clickbait written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

    Catch the full episode:

     

    Carmine GalloEpisode Overview

    In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes back bestselling author, keynote speaker, and communication expert Carmine Gallo to discuss his latest audio-original book, Viral Voices: From TED Talks to TikTok. Carmine shares powerful insights into how persuasive communication principles, rooted in ancient rhetoric and modern neuroscience, can help anyone break through the noise in today’s fast-paced digital world. Whether you’re a marketer, entrepreneur, or aspiring thought leader, this episode unpacks why storytelling, structure, and a strong hook are more essential than ever.

    Guest Bio

    Carmine Gallo is a renowned communication coach, author, and former journalist. As president of Gallo Communications Group, he helps business leaders, entrepreneurs, and changemakers craft compelling messages. His previous bestsellers include Talk Like TED and The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. His latest project, Viral Voices, is an audio-first book produced with Macmillan Audio that explores the art of persuasion in the era of digital content. Carmine contributes to Forbes and is a frequent speaker on communication strategy.

    Key Takeaways

    • Why Audio-Originals Matter: Carmine explains the power of creating a book specifically designed for audio, blending performance, storytelling, and neuroscience for a richer experience.
    • The Neuroscience of Attention: From movement on screen to sentence structure, learn what actually hooks attention based on how our brains are wired.
    • The Timeless Power of Storytelling: Discover how ancient principles from Aristotle’s three-act structure to the hero’s journey still shape today’s most engaging content.
    • AI vs. Human Creativity: Why AI struggles with creativity and why human imagination and emotional storytelling remain irreplaceable.
    • Practical Tips for Marketers: How to structure your message, craft irresistible hooks, and use contrast and simplicity to persuade effectively on any platform.

    Great Moments in the Episode

    • (01:22) – Why Carmine chose to make Viral Voices an audio-first book
    • (03:41) – The JFK speech breakdown: what makes a phrase “sticky”
    • (04:43) – Why the rules of persuasion haven’t changed, even if the platforms have
    • (06:14) – The ancient origins and modern power of storytelling
    • (08:03) – How Mr. Beast and Sahil Bloom use Aristotle’s three-act structure
    • (10:29) – Nvidia’s origin story: How Jensen Huang hooks an audience
    • (12:21) – Why movement grabs attention and what marketers can learn from neuroscience
    • (16:48) – AI can’t think different: What makes human communication irreplaceable
    • (20:13) – Richard Branson’s balloon crash: Why failure makes a better story

    Notable Quotes

    “If you learn the ancient art of persuasion, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s TikTok, a TED Talk, or PowerPoint.”

    “AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning.”

    Where to Listen

    Viral Voices is available on Spotify and major audiobook platforms.

    Connect with Carmine Gallo

    John Jantsch (00:00.856)

    Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Carmine Gallo. He is an American author, communication coach, keynote speaker, and former journalist news anchor with decades of experience helping leaders communicate ideas that stick. He is the president of Gallo Communications Group and a contributor to places like Forbes Leadership Council, or channel, I should say.

    He’s been on the show for some of his previous books. I think it was talk like Ted, at least. And today we’re going to talk about his newest book, Viral Voices from Ted Talks to TikTok, Persuasive Communication Skills for the Digital Age. So welcome, Carmen.

    Carmine Gallo (00:29.527)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (00:43.19)

    John, thank you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and Duct Tape Marketing. Glad to see you’re still going strong since we last spoke about Talk Like Ted, which was a few years back.

    John Jantsch (00:53.134)

    Yeah. I thought you were going to say congratulations on like making it this long, you know, but, uh, but, uh, yeah, no, I’ve, I’ve, uh, I started my show in 2005. I just really thought it was going to be a cool medium. And, uh, so it, it, it is probably one of the longer running, you know, business marketing shows. So that’s why I’ve, you know, I people that I’ve had out on five, six times, you know, because they’ve written books, that many books over that period of time. So one of things I want to hit first is, um, this is an

    Carmine Gallo (00:57.512)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (01:05.156)

    Mm-mm.

    John Jantsch (01:22.636)

    what you’re calling an audio original book. And I think that’s kind of fascinating because it, know, most people just write a book and then the publisher says, well, let’s get that in a different format and make it audio. I will say that it’s come a long way. You know, now people are making them a little more performance based and their sound effects and things like that. But why’d you choose to go this route?

    Carmine Gallo (01:47.16)

    Isn’t it fascinating because you know me, I love to learn new things, experiment with new platforms. And so Viral Voices is what’s called an audiobook original that I wrote and produced in partnership with Macmillan Audio, which is a giant New York based publishing audiobook publisher. Unlike a traditional audiobook, which is in most cases a printed book read aloud,

    John Jantsch (01:48.515)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (01:57.464)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (02:05.72)

    Right, sure.

    John Jantsch (02:14.167)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (02:14.352)

    And unlike what you do, which is an ongoing podcast, an audio original is 10 to 12 episodes on a specific topic written and produced entirely from scratch for the audio listener on Spotify and wherever people get their audio books. I think you’ll appreciate this, John, through exclusive interviews that I was able to conduct, but also using archived audio.

    and archived speeches and history, I have the flexibility and the creativity to really dive deeper into advanced communication tactics like storytelling or vocal delivery or frankly the art and the science of persuasion. So for example, I was just thinking about this recently. I got to use archival sound of John F. Kennedy’s famous line in his inaugural speech, ask not

    what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Then we cut to neuroscientists who I interviewed, who explain why that line sticks. Why is it sticky? Why is it one of the most memorable lines of the 20th century? Because of things like contrast, placing two opposing ideas back to back, symmetry. Both parts of the line are exactly the same in terms of syllables. Things like

    John Jantsch (03:24.558)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (03:41.248)

    replacing long words with short words, et cetera. So how does that apply to today? Well, if you think about AI, for example, what is the most common expression that you’ve heard recently on AI? And I bet you’ve heard this before. AI won’t replace you. Someone who uses AI will. John, it’s the same sentence. That is an example of contrast.

    John Jantsch (04:00.238)

    I’ve said it. I’ve said it.

    Yeah,

    Carmine Gallo (04:11.029)

    And so you’ve said it, I’ve said it. I’ve heard Mark Cuban say it. I’ve heard Sam Altman say it. But again, what’s fascinating to me about this whole journey that I’ve been on over the last couple of years is that you can learn, if you learn the ancient art of persuasion, the ancient art, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s on TikTok or a Ted stage or using PowerPoint, again, digital.

    Because the tools of communication have changed, the human brain has not. Understand the fundamental science behind persuasion and you’ll be able to adapt to any new platform.

    John Jantsch (04:43.874)

    Yes.

    John Jantsch (04:50.978)

    Yeah, I mean

    let’s go how far you want to go back caveman Aristotle. mean, they’re they’re known for actually persuasion. And you know, as you said, I mean, that’s really what they were capable of doing. And I do think, especially people that came up in the digital age, I think that a lot of marketers are like, no, the tools are it it changes everything. And it really is true. mean, fundamentally, we’ve got to get somebody who has a need to trust us enough to give them give us their money. I mean, that’s it, right?

    Carmine Gallo (05:20.203)

    Okay, here’s something I’ll tell all the marketers today. What’s the buzzword in marketing today? Storytelling. Well, I interviewed Yuval Noah Harari, a historian and an author of one of the most famous non-fiction books in the world, Sapiens. And he said that storytelling was a fundamental component of how our species became the apex predator, the dominant species of the world.

    John Jantsch (05:35.534)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (05:48.482)

    because we had the unique ability to tell stories that encourage a large group of people to cooperate with one another. So folks, you did not invent storytelling. This goes back hundreds of thousands of years. But what’s fascinating to me is when I get to interview influencers and content creators who may not even know all that history.

    John Jantsch (05:58.242)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (06:14.093)

    but they’re still using the same tactics of storytelling that we’ve known about through hundreds of thousands of years. That’s interesting to me.

    John Jantsch (06:22.786)

    Yeah, mean, storytelling evolved before there was a written language. So there was no way to write down a story. It was passed from person elder to the next person. And I think you’re absolutely 100 % right. What are some of the best communicators? I know you talk a lot about Obama in the book, I think. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (06:47.521)

    Yeah, a little, yeah. I do a little bit because I interviewed Obama’s former speech writer. So it’s more about the words, why they use certain words. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (06:53.562)

    Yeah, yeah, Yeah, so what do they do that’s sort of radically different than, you know, especially marketers who are just tying in the hot cup product?

    Carmine Gallo (07:04.915)

    right now, especially, it’s really important that not only do you study great communicators of the past, but also take a look at the content creators and the influencers and digital marketers who do seem to get it right. And they’re creating really interesting, creative, and compelling video. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is a perfect example.

    John Jantsch (07:12.716)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (07:28.905)

    Mr. Beast, mean.

    Carmine Gallo (07:34.188)

    Gary Vaynerchuk often talks about the importance of telling a story. But here’s the interesting part. If you go back throughout history, you’ll know, and you know this, but not everybody does, John. This whole idea of having a storytelling structure, storytelling structure like the three acts structure goes back to Aristotle, all famous Hollywood films, nearly all of them fall into the three act structure. And that is set up, conflict, resolution. Here’s the status quo.

    John Jantsch (07:38.327)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (08:03.617)

    Here’s the world in which the hero lives in the ordinary world. Here’s the problem they face and here’s how they are going to resolve the problem and everybody lives happily ever after. Well, I started interviewing people who had a former career like Sahil Bloom is one of the guests who I’ve interviewed. Sahil Bloom was a finance guy on Wall Street and then created a newsletter and now has quite a popular and strong following on Instagram.

    where he explains these complex financial topics in ways that people can understand. So I said, me through the structure. Mr. Beast has a similar structure. Here’s the way the world exists today. Here’s the status quo. Here’s what you’ve been doing. Here’s why if you continue to do what you’ve been doing, you’re gonna fall behind. And here’s the solution that you’ve been searching for. That’s how you get people hooked on a video. Hooked, that’s the other word they use.

    John Jantsch (08:59.682)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (09:01.707)

    All good content creators use the word hook. How am I going to hook you? More often than not, they are talking about the three act structure. Often not even knowing that it’s the three act structure that goes back to Aristotle. So I think if you understand storytelling, not just the buzzword, you can’t just say, well, tell a story. No, be deliberate about what that means. What does it mean to tell a story? What does it mean to have a structure?

    By following these simple structures, you’ll be able to adapt into almost any means, especially on social media. You can create a short form video that’s perfectly adapted to the three act structure. But you need to understand the structure first, which is why I have one episode that’s just on the three act structure. I have another episode that talks about scenes within three act structure. And I’ll use people like Jensen Huang.

    Jensen Wong may not be his household name, but Nvidia sure is. He’s the CEO and founder of Nvidia. Listen to his interviews, John. It’s quite fascinating. He always talks about starting at Denny’s. When people ask him about Nvidia and the founding of Nvidia and how it was created, he doesn’t start by talking about, it’s the first $5 trillion company and here are all the chips that we make that power the AI world.

    John Jantsch (10:03.918)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (10:13.358)

    Mm.

    Carmine Gallo (10:29.813)

    Instead, he said, it all started at Denny’s, where me and a handful of, you know, and a couple of other friends met at the diner over pancakes and coffee. And we came up with this idea that eventually became Nvidia. But he repeats it in almost every interview. That to me is a hero’s journey. He’s not starting from the conclusion. He’s starting from the beginning. Where does the origin, the spark start? And you know this.

    John Jantsch (10:47.043)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (10:59.955)

    and all, most of the people listening to this know it better than average. If a story starts with humble beginnings, it’s more interesting on that arc. And that arc, by the way, at Nvidia has a lot of ups and downs too. And he takes people through this arc until today. That to me, that tells me he’s a storyteller. It makes people more interesting and engaging.

    as marketers or speakers if you understand how to tell a powerful story.

    John Jantsch (11:30.712)

    So you mentioned the idea of a hook. And I think a lot of people use that in a lot of ways it’s become so important because attention is so fleeting. And so the idea of a hook is it’s like, give me three seconds. You got three seconds to tell me why I should listen to this, right? How, unfortunately that sometimes leads to clickbait and to, you know, to really abuse of that idea. So how do you use that effectively?

    Carmine Gallo (11:44.099)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (11:52.097)

    Hmm? Sure.

    Carmine Gallo (11:57.56)

    First of all, it’s not new. I asked all these questions of neuroscientists and people who actually do a lot of brain research. None of this is new. John, do you know how nowadays people say movement? If you’re doing something on TikTok, it’ll stop the scroll. So you’ll have women putting on makeup while they’re talking, right? Yeah, they’re walking.

    John Jantsch (11:59.618)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:05.453)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:15.896)

    Sure.

    or just even walking while they’re holding their camera, right? Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (12:21.613)

    You’re walking talk, right. Well, guess what? John Medina, a famous molecular biologist who’s been studying the brain for some four decades told me, Carmine, that’s not surprising because movement captures your attention. It’s evolutionary. If something is moving, it could be a threat. Therefore, you focus on it. That’s the hook. They’re calling it a hook, but the point has always been the same.

    John Jantsch (12:38.328)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:45.058)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:49.122)

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (12:51.491)

    People want to know almost immediately. Now, let’s separate this from the movement. I don’t want to get too confusing, but the hook is absolutely right. Whether it’s three seconds or seven seconds, there’s a lot of questions about that research as well. So don’t just say it’s three seconds or seven. No one really knows what it is, but it sounds good. Sort of like the 10,000, you know 10,000 steps.

    John Jantsch (13:03.647)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (13:10.028)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (13:17.006)

    Well, I’ve always… Right.

    Carmine Gallo (13:21.123)

    Doesn’t necessarily, it’s more like 7,300 steps, but 10,000 sounds better. Okay, so let’s go with three or seven seconds. I’ve talked to neuroscientists who say this is not surprising because within the first few seconds of meeting somebody new, the brain is asking questions. Who is this person? Should I trust this person, friend or foe? And the other question it’s asking is, should I consume energy listening?

    John Jantsch (13:27.65)

    me.

    John Jantsch (13:37.57)

    Yes. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (13:45.154)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (13:50.862)

    to this person. Of course, hook. That’s a good point. Look, I don’t care if you start within three seconds or seven seconds, but I think the point is well established. Grab people’s attention early. You’re not writing a mystery novel where you have to save the whodunit for the end. Grab people’s attention early.

    John Jantsch (13:52.79)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (14:09.242)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Character development needs to be later. Right. You know, I’ve always said, cause a lot of times people say, how long should my video be? And I think this is the same, the true of the hook is your hook can be as long as it is not boring, as it is entertaining, as it is addressing the problem that I’m trying to fix. mean, so I think that’s how you have to look at it is people tune out cause they’re like, this isn’t for me.

    Carmine Gallo (14:33.795)

    Exactly. People don’t tune out because it’s an hour long podcast. They tune out because it’s boring. And I think you bring up a good point. I actually like podcasts like yours that are more like 20 minutes, because frankly, it is hard to keep people’s attention for more than 10 to 20 minutes. So you’d have to be really good, have an enormously compelling guest or topic.

    John Jantsch (14:36.59)

    Heck no. Right.

    John Jantsch (14:47.714)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (14:53.55)

    Yeah, that is.

    Carmine Gallo (15:02.787)

    But most people in general, and this is something else that’s well established in the science literature, will tune out of a presentation, no matter how interesting it is, after about 10 to 20 minutes. So again, why go on for an hour? If you’re giving a PowerPoint presentation to your boss, to a team, and they give you 45 minutes, don’t take 45 minutes. Deliver it in 15 minutes.

    wait for the Q &A and if everybody gets done in 25 minutes, they’ll be much happier because they got some time back during their day.

    John Jantsch (15:33.996)

    Yeah, you’re hero. So from the neuroscience, were there any surprising insights that particularly are ones that most leaders overlook when they’re trying to be persuasive?

    Carmine Gallo (15:48.17)

    Yeah, there were so many. One of the reasons why I really enjoy doing this whole project is because I learned a lot of things I didn’t know. And I’m obsessed with this. I’ve been studying storytelling and communication skills and writing about it for more than 20 years, for about two decades now. I’m obsessed with it. I thought I knew a lot. There are a lot of things that I did not know, especially when it comes to the neuroscience of AI.

    John Jantsch (15:49.742)

    Come

    John Jantsch (16:11.822)

    you

    Carmine Gallo (16:18.667)

    And I think this is key. well, the reason why I didn’t know is because it is new. Most people don’t know this stuff. And if anyone ever tells you that they’re an AI expert and they know exactly how to crack the algorithm, don’t believe it. Don’t believe it. Because no one really does know. It changes every day. But the neuroscientists will tell you that here’s the interesting thing about AI.

    John Jantsch (16:23.854)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (16:34.117)

    Yeah. Well, it’s also changes every day too, so.

    Carmine Gallo (16:48.291)

    AI, as most of you know, most of your listeners know, does not have imagination. So set aside that whole argument about is it conscious? Is it sentient? Is it emotional? Is it human? No. No, they say. Most scientists, most neuroscientists, kind of, you know, they dismiss all that talk because they know what’s different. But here’s what they taught me.

    John Jantsch (16:56.43)

    you

    John Jantsch (17:04.714)

    Is it even intelligence? Right?

    John Jantsch (17:14.946)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (17:18.527)

    And here’s a great example. I have this in the Viral Voices audiobook. Did you know that if Steve Jobs had asked ChatGPT to come up with an ad campaign for Apple, it would not have written, think different, and then connect think different to real people like Albert Einstein and Nelson Mandela like the now famous Apple ad.

    And so I asked some AI experts or people who study AI or work for chat, GBT and open AI, why? Why would it have not come up with something like Steve Jobs did? And they said, because that’s too creative. AI, here’s what I was told. AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning. So think different works.

    John Jantsch (18:02.604)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (18:09.837)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (18:14.999)

    precisely because it breaks the rules. And that catches people’s attention because people like rule breakers, like Steve Jobs. It’s really fascinating, John. But if you start delegating everything to AI and not using it simply as a great tool to speed up content creation, to analyze, to research, to help you improve, if you start delegating too much, you lose your authentic human voice.

    John Jantsch (18:23.758)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (18:44.631)

    And then everything becomes AI slop. You you’ve heard of that term, right? AI generated content. So I think to survive, to thrive, especially in marketing today, you’ve got to stand out. You’ve got to be distinct. How? Be uniquely human and celebrate and amplify your uniquely human voice.

    John Jantsch (18:44.845)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (18:48.396)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (19:01.197)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (19:07.886)

    So in these books, this is a terribly unfair question, but in these books where people do lot of interviews with people, I always like to say, who is your favorite or most enjoyable interview?

    Carmine Gallo (19:18.519)

    Yeah. Richard Branson. I have Richard Branson in this audio book too. Richard Branson loves storytelling and of my, and you know, he’s, he’s just a fun guy. He’s really down to earth for being a guy who’s worth billions of dollars and who created Virgin. But he told me the funniest story that I have in this audio book. And that’s what I liked about audio books. I could actually talk to people and you get to hear their voice, not just.

    John Jantsch (19:22.496)

    Okay.

    John Jantsch (19:29.666)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (19:38.092)

    Right, right.

    John Jantsch (19:45.536)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (19:48.483)

    printed quote. And so Richard Branson told me that, yeah, it’s very important to grab attention through the stories you tell. And he was talking about marketing and all that. And he said that when his, tried to, he was on a hot air balloon and he was trying to break the transatlantic record for crossing the Atlantic in a hot air balloon. And the first time it crashed, it crashed off the coast of Ireland. And it was, you know,

    John Jantsch (19:56.43)

    you

    Carmine Gallo (20:13.858)

    pretty dramatic. And so I’ve got some news footage, archival news footage from the scene. They almost lost their lives. I mean, it was pretty, it was very serious. But then Richard Branson, and only the way Branson can, said, actually it turned out to be a better story than if I had succeeded because we crashed into the Atlantic. And he goes, and if you take a look at the news footage, the last thing you see going down is a big hot air balloon with Virgin on it. And he said,

    John Jantsch (20:17.495)

    Mm.

    Yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:30.606)

    Sure.

    John Jantsch (20:38.126)

    Virgin.

    Carmine Gallo (20:43.18)

    Carmine, a good story is not always a straight success story. You need tension, you need the mistakes and failures along the way. Brilliant, brilliant, but he was looking at it from a marketing perspective, he said, it was a much better story.

    John Jantsch (20:47.054)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:54.691)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:59.854)

    Well, Carl, and I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, learn about your work and maybe even find a copy of Viral Voices?

    Carmine Gallo (21:11.618)

    It’s a viral voices will be available on Spotify and any place you get your podcast. And if you’d like to know more about me or simply contact me, if you can remember a good Italian name like Carmine Gallo, I’m very easy to find on the internet. You can go to carminegallo.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I love that platform as well.

    John Jantsch (21:23.265)

    you

    John Jantsch (21:30.42)

    I remember my parents did not drink much, but if they drank, it was Gallo wine. Awesome. Well, well again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

    Carmine Gallo (21:36.226)

    There’s a lot better wine these days, but I appreciate it. But I like my wine too.

    Carmine Gallo (21:50.092)

    You bet. Thanks, John.

    powered by

  • The Marketing Operating System: Why Strategy Alone Isn’t Enough Anymore

    The Marketing Operating System: Why Strategy Alone Isn’t Enough Anymore

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    Catch the full episode:

     

    Carmine GalloEpisode Overview

    In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch welcomes back bestselling author, keynote speaker, and communication expert Carmine Gallo to discuss his latest audio-original book, Viral Voices: From TED Talks to TikTok. Carmine shares powerful insights into how persuasive communication principles, rooted in ancient rhetoric and modern neuroscience, can help anyone break through the noise in today’s fast-paced digital world. Whether you’re a marketer, entrepreneur, or aspiring thought leader, this episode unpacks why storytelling, structure, and a strong hook are more essential than ever.

    Guest Bio

    Carmine Gallo is a renowned communication coach, author, and former journalist. As president of Gallo Communications Group, he helps business leaders, entrepreneurs, and changemakers craft compelling messages. His previous bestsellers include Talk Like TED and The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. His latest project, Viral Voices, is an audio-first book produced with Macmillan Audio that explores the art of persuasion in the era of digital content. Carmine contributes to Forbes and is a frequent speaker on communication strategy.

    Key Takeaways

    • Why Audio-Originals Matter: Carmine explains the power of creating a book specifically designed for audio, blending performance, storytelling, and neuroscience for a richer experience.
    • The Neuroscience of Attention: From movement on screen to sentence structure, learn what actually hooks attention based on how our brains are wired.
    • The Timeless Power of Storytelling: Discover how ancient principles from Aristotle’s three-act structure to the hero’s journey still shape today’s most engaging content.
    • AI vs. Human Creativity: Why AI struggles with creativity and why human imagination and emotional storytelling remain irreplaceable.
    • Practical Tips for Marketers: How to structure your message, craft irresistible hooks, and use contrast and simplicity to persuade effectively on any platform.

    Great Moments in the Episode

    • (01:22) – Why Carmine chose to make Viral Voices an audio-first book
    • (03:41) – The JFK speech breakdown: what makes a phrase “sticky”
    • (04:43) – Why the rules of persuasion haven’t changed, even if the platforms have
    • (06:14) – The ancient origins and modern power of storytelling
    • (08:03) – How Mr. Beast and Sahil Bloom use Aristotle’s three-act structure
    • (10:29) – Nvidia’s origin story: How Jensen Huang hooks an audience
    • (12:21) – Why movement grabs attention and what marketers can learn from neuroscience
    • (16:48) – AI can’t think different: What makes human communication irreplaceable
    • (20:13) – Richard Branson’s balloon crash: Why failure makes a better story

    Notable Quotes

    “If you learn the ancient art of persuasion, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s TikTok, a TED Talk, or PowerPoint.”

    “AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning.”

    Where to Listen

    Viral Voices is available on Spotify and major audiobook platforms.

    Connect with Carmine Gallo

    John Jantsch (00:00.856)

    Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Carmine Gallo. He is an American author, communication coach, keynote speaker, and former journalist news anchor with decades of experience helping leaders communicate ideas that stick. He is the president of Gallo Communications Group and a contributor to places like Forbes Leadership Council, or channel, I should say.

    He’s been on the show for some of his previous books. I think it was talk like Ted, at least. And today we’re going to talk about his newest book, Viral Voices from Ted Talks to TikTok, Persuasive Communication Skills for the Digital Age. So welcome, Carmen.

    Carmine Gallo (00:29.527)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (00:43.19)

    John, thank you. Congratulations on the success of your podcast and Duct Tape Marketing. Glad to see you’re still going strong since we last spoke about Talk Like Ted, which was a few years back.

    John Jantsch (00:53.134)

    Yeah. I thought you were going to say congratulations on like making it this long, you know, but, uh, but, uh, yeah, no, I’ve, I’ve, uh, I started my show in 2005. I just really thought it was going to be a cool medium. And, uh, so it, it, it is probably one of the longer running, you know, business marketing shows. So that’s why I’ve, you know, I people that I’ve had out on five, six times, you know, because they’ve written books, that many books over that period of time. So one of things I want to hit first is, um, this is an

    Carmine Gallo (00:57.512)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (01:05.156)

    Mm-mm.

    John Jantsch (01:22.636)

    what you’re calling an audio original book. And I think that’s kind of fascinating because it, know, most people just write a book and then the publisher says, well, let’s get that in a different format and make it audio. I will say that it’s come a long way. You know, now people are making them a little more performance based and their sound effects and things like that. But why’d you choose to go this route?

    Carmine Gallo (01:47.16)

    Isn’t it fascinating because you know me, I love to learn new things, experiment with new platforms. And so Viral Voices is what’s called an audiobook original that I wrote and produced in partnership with Macmillan Audio, which is a giant New York based publishing audiobook publisher. Unlike a traditional audiobook, which is in most cases a printed book read aloud,

    John Jantsch (01:48.515)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (01:57.464)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (02:05.72)

    Right, sure.

    John Jantsch (02:14.167)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (02:14.352)

    And unlike what you do, which is an ongoing podcast, an audio original is 10 to 12 episodes on a specific topic written and produced entirely from scratch for the audio listener on Spotify and wherever people get their audio books. I think you’ll appreciate this, John, through exclusive interviews that I was able to conduct, but also using archived audio.

    and archived speeches and history, I have the flexibility and the creativity to really dive deeper into advanced communication tactics like storytelling or vocal delivery or frankly the art and the science of persuasion. So for example, I was just thinking about this recently. I got to use archival sound of John F. Kennedy’s famous line in his inaugural speech, ask not

    what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Then we cut to neuroscientists who I interviewed, who explain why that line sticks. Why is it sticky? Why is it one of the most memorable lines of the 20th century? Because of things like contrast, placing two opposing ideas back to back, symmetry. Both parts of the line are exactly the same in terms of syllables. Things like

    John Jantsch (03:24.558)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (03:41.248)

    replacing long words with short words, et cetera. So how does that apply to today? Well, if you think about AI, for example, what is the most common expression that you’ve heard recently on AI? And I bet you’ve heard this before. AI won’t replace you. Someone who uses AI will. John, it’s the same sentence. That is an example of contrast.

    John Jantsch (04:00.238)

    I’ve said it. I’ve said it.

    Yeah,

    Carmine Gallo (04:11.029)

    And so you’ve said it, I’ve said it. I’ve heard Mark Cuban say it. I’ve heard Sam Altman say it. But again, what’s fascinating to me about this whole journey that I’ve been on over the last couple of years is that you can learn, if you learn the ancient art of persuasion, the ancient art, you’ll be able to stand out in the digital world, whether it’s on TikTok or a Ted stage or using PowerPoint, again, digital.

    Because the tools of communication have changed, the human brain has not. Understand the fundamental science behind persuasion and you’ll be able to adapt to any new platform.

    John Jantsch (04:43.874)

    Yes.

    John Jantsch (04:50.978)

    Yeah, I mean

    let’s go how far you want to go back caveman Aristotle. mean, they’re they’re known for actually persuasion. And you know, as you said, I mean, that’s really what they were capable of doing. And I do think, especially people that came up in the digital age, I think that a lot of marketers are like, no, the tools are it it changes everything. And it really is true. mean, fundamentally, we’ve got to get somebody who has a need to trust us enough to give them give us their money. I mean, that’s it, right?

    Carmine Gallo (05:20.203)

    Okay, here’s something I’ll tell all the marketers today. What’s the buzzword in marketing today? Storytelling. Well, I interviewed Yuval Noah Harari, a historian and an author of one of the most famous non-fiction books in the world, Sapiens. And he said that storytelling was a fundamental component of how our species became the apex predator, the dominant species of the world.

    John Jantsch (05:35.534)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (05:48.482)

    because we had the unique ability to tell stories that encourage a large group of people to cooperate with one another. So folks, you did not invent storytelling. This goes back hundreds of thousands of years. But what’s fascinating to me is when I get to interview influencers and content creators who may not even know all that history.

    John Jantsch (05:58.242)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (06:14.093)

    but they’re still using the same tactics of storytelling that we’ve known about through hundreds of thousands of years. That’s interesting to me.

    John Jantsch (06:22.786)

    Yeah, mean, storytelling evolved before there was a written language. So there was no way to write down a story. It was passed from person elder to the next person. And I think you’re absolutely 100 % right. What are some of the best communicators? I know you talk a lot about Obama in the book, I think. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (06:47.521)

    Yeah, a little, yeah. I do a little bit because I interviewed Obama’s former speech writer. So it’s more about the words, why they use certain words. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (06:53.562)

    Yeah, yeah, Yeah, so what do they do that’s sort of radically different than, you know, especially marketers who are just tying in the hot cup product?

    Carmine Gallo (07:04.915)

    right now, especially, it’s really important that not only do you study great communicators of the past, but also take a look at the content creators and the influencers and digital marketers who do seem to get it right. And they’re creating really interesting, creative, and compelling video. Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is a perfect example.

    John Jantsch (07:12.716)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (07:28.905)

    Mr. Beast, mean.

    Carmine Gallo (07:34.188)

    Gary Vaynerchuk often talks about the importance of telling a story. But here’s the interesting part. If you go back throughout history, you’ll know, and you know this, but not everybody does, John. This whole idea of having a storytelling structure, storytelling structure like the three acts structure goes back to Aristotle, all famous Hollywood films, nearly all of them fall into the three act structure. And that is set up, conflict, resolution. Here’s the status quo.

    John Jantsch (07:38.327)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (08:03.617)

    Here’s the world in which the hero lives in the ordinary world. Here’s the problem they face and here’s how they are going to resolve the problem and everybody lives happily ever after. Well, I started interviewing people who had a former career like Sahil Bloom is one of the guests who I’ve interviewed. Sahil Bloom was a finance guy on Wall Street and then created a newsletter and now has quite a popular and strong following on Instagram.

    where he explains these complex financial topics in ways that people can understand. So I said, me through the structure. Mr. Beast has a similar structure. Here’s the way the world exists today. Here’s the status quo. Here’s what you’ve been doing. Here’s why if you continue to do what you’ve been doing, you’re gonna fall behind. And here’s the solution that you’ve been searching for. That’s how you get people hooked on a video. Hooked, that’s the other word they use.

    John Jantsch (08:59.682)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (09:01.707)

    All good content creators use the word hook. How am I going to hook you? More often than not, they are talking about the three act structure. Often not even knowing that it’s the three act structure that goes back to Aristotle. So I think if you understand storytelling, not just the buzzword, you can’t just say, well, tell a story. No, be deliberate about what that means. What does it mean to tell a story? What does it mean to have a structure?

    By following these simple structures, you’ll be able to adapt into almost any means, especially on social media. You can create a short form video that’s perfectly adapted to the three act structure. But you need to understand the structure first, which is why I have one episode that’s just on the three act structure. I have another episode that talks about scenes within three act structure. And I’ll use people like Jensen Huang.

    Jensen Wong may not be his household name, but Nvidia sure is. He’s the CEO and founder of Nvidia. Listen to his interviews, John. It’s quite fascinating. He always talks about starting at Denny’s. When people ask him about Nvidia and the founding of Nvidia and how it was created, he doesn’t start by talking about, it’s the first $5 trillion company and here are all the chips that we make that power the AI world.

    John Jantsch (10:03.918)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (10:13.358)

    Mm.

    Carmine Gallo (10:29.813)

    Instead, he said, it all started at Denny’s, where me and a handful of, you know, and a couple of other friends met at the diner over pancakes and coffee. And we came up with this idea that eventually became Nvidia. But he repeats it in almost every interview. That to me is a hero’s journey. He’s not starting from the conclusion. He’s starting from the beginning. Where does the origin, the spark start? And you know this.

    John Jantsch (10:47.043)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (10:59.955)

    and all, most of the people listening to this know it better than average. If a story starts with humble beginnings, it’s more interesting on that arc. And that arc, by the way, at Nvidia has a lot of ups and downs too. And he takes people through this arc until today. That to me, that tells me he’s a storyteller. It makes people more interesting and engaging.

    as marketers or speakers if you understand how to tell a powerful story.

    John Jantsch (11:30.712)

    So you mentioned the idea of a hook. And I think a lot of people use that in a lot of ways it’s become so important because attention is so fleeting. And so the idea of a hook is it’s like, give me three seconds. You got three seconds to tell me why I should listen to this, right? How, unfortunately that sometimes leads to clickbait and to, you know, to really abuse of that idea. So how do you use that effectively?

    Carmine Gallo (11:44.099)

    Mm-hmm.

    Carmine Gallo (11:52.097)

    Hmm? Sure.

    Carmine Gallo (11:57.56)

    First of all, it’s not new. I asked all these questions of neuroscientists and people who actually do a lot of brain research. None of this is new. John, do you know how nowadays people say movement? If you’re doing something on TikTok, it’ll stop the scroll. So you’ll have women putting on makeup while they’re talking, right? Yeah, they’re walking.

    John Jantsch (11:59.618)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:05.453)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:15.896)

    Sure.

    or just even walking while they’re holding their camera, right? Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (12:21.613)

    You’re walking talk, right. Well, guess what? John Medina, a famous molecular biologist who’s been studying the brain for some four decades told me, Carmine, that’s not surprising because movement captures your attention. It’s evolutionary. If something is moving, it could be a threat. Therefore, you focus on it. That’s the hook. They’re calling it a hook, but the point has always been the same.

    John Jantsch (12:38.328)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:45.058)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (12:49.122)

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (12:51.491)

    People want to know almost immediately. Now, let’s separate this from the movement. I don’t want to get too confusing, but the hook is absolutely right. Whether it’s three seconds or seven seconds, there’s a lot of questions about that research as well. So don’t just say it’s three seconds or seven. No one really knows what it is, but it sounds good. Sort of like the 10,000, you know 10,000 steps.

    John Jantsch (13:03.647)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (13:10.028)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (13:17.006)

    Well, I’ve always… Right.

    Carmine Gallo (13:21.123)

    Doesn’t necessarily, it’s more like 7,300 steps, but 10,000 sounds better. Okay, so let’s go with three or seven seconds. I’ve talked to neuroscientists who say this is not surprising because within the first few seconds of meeting somebody new, the brain is asking questions. Who is this person? Should I trust this person, friend or foe? And the other question it’s asking is, should I consume energy listening?

    John Jantsch (13:27.65)

    me.

    John Jantsch (13:37.57)

    Yes. Yeah.

    John Jantsch (13:45.154)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (13:50.862)

    to this person. Of course, hook. That’s a good point. Look, I don’t care if you start within three seconds or seven seconds, but I think the point is well established. Grab people’s attention early. You’re not writing a mystery novel where you have to save the whodunit for the end. Grab people’s attention early.

    John Jantsch (13:52.79)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (14:09.242)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Character development needs to be later. Right. You know, I’ve always said, cause a lot of times people say, how long should my video be? And I think this is the same, the true of the hook is your hook can be as long as it is not boring, as it is entertaining, as it is addressing the problem that I’m trying to fix. mean, so I think that’s how you have to look at it is people tune out cause they’re like, this isn’t for me.

    Carmine Gallo (14:33.795)

    Exactly. People don’t tune out because it’s an hour long podcast. They tune out because it’s boring. And I think you bring up a good point. I actually like podcasts like yours that are more like 20 minutes, because frankly, it is hard to keep people’s attention for more than 10 to 20 minutes. So you’d have to be really good, have an enormously compelling guest or topic.

    John Jantsch (14:36.59)

    Heck no. Right.

    John Jantsch (14:47.714)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (14:53.55)

    Yeah, that is.

    Carmine Gallo (15:02.787)

    But most people in general, and this is something else that’s well established in the science literature, will tune out of a presentation, no matter how interesting it is, after about 10 to 20 minutes. So again, why go on for an hour? If you’re giving a PowerPoint presentation to your boss, to a team, and they give you 45 minutes, don’t take 45 minutes. Deliver it in 15 minutes.

    wait for the Q &A and if everybody gets done in 25 minutes, they’ll be much happier because they got some time back during their day.

    John Jantsch (15:33.996)

    Yeah, you’re hero. So from the neuroscience, were there any surprising insights that particularly are ones that most leaders overlook when they’re trying to be persuasive?

    Carmine Gallo (15:48.17)

    Yeah, there were so many. One of the reasons why I really enjoy doing this whole project is because I learned a lot of things I didn’t know. And I’m obsessed with this. I’ve been studying storytelling and communication skills and writing about it for more than 20 years, for about two decades now. I’m obsessed with it. I thought I knew a lot. There are a lot of things that I did not know, especially when it comes to the neuroscience of AI.

    John Jantsch (15:49.742)

    Come

    John Jantsch (16:11.822)

    you

    Carmine Gallo (16:18.667)

    And I think this is key. well, the reason why I didn’t know is because it is new. Most people don’t know this stuff. And if anyone ever tells you that they’re an AI expert and they know exactly how to crack the algorithm, don’t believe it. Don’t believe it. Because no one really does know. It changes every day. But the neuroscientists will tell you that here’s the interesting thing about AI.

    John Jantsch (16:23.854)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (16:34.117)

    Yeah. Well, it’s also changes every day too, so.

    Carmine Gallo (16:48.291)

    AI, as most of you know, most of your listeners know, does not have imagination. So set aside that whole argument about is it conscious? Is it sentient? Is it emotional? Is it human? No. No, they say. Most scientists, most neuroscientists, kind of, you know, they dismiss all that talk because they know what’s different. But here’s what they taught me.

    John Jantsch (16:56.43)

    you

    John Jantsch (17:04.714)

    Is it even intelligence? Right?

    John Jantsch (17:14.946)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (17:18.527)

    And here’s a great example. I have this in the Viral Voices audiobook. Did you know that if Steve Jobs had asked ChatGPT to come up with an ad campaign for Apple, it would not have written, think different, and then connect think different to real people like Albert Einstein and Nelson Mandela like the now famous Apple ad.

    And so I asked some AI experts or people who study AI or work for chat, GBT and open AI, why? Why would it have not come up with something like Steve Jobs did? And they said, because that’s too creative. AI, here’s what I was told. AI optimizes for correct grammar. Humans optimize for meaning. So think different works.

    John Jantsch (18:02.604)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (18:09.837)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (18:14.999)

    precisely because it breaks the rules. And that catches people’s attention because people like rule breakers, like Steve Jobs. It’s really fascinating, John. But if you start delegating everything to AI and not using it simply as a great tool to speed up content creation, to analyze, to research, to help you improve, if you start delegating too much, you lose your authentic human voice.

    John Jantsch (18:23.758)

    Yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (18:44.631)

    And then everything becomes AI slop. You you’ve heard of that term, right? AI generated content. So I think to survive, to thrive, especially in marketing today, you’ve got to stand out. You’ve got to be distinct. How? Be uniquely human and celebrate and amplify your uniquely human voice.

    John Jantsch (18:44.845)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (18:48.396)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (19:01.197)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (19:07.886)

    So in these books, this is a terribly unfair question, but in these books where people do lot of interviews with people, I always like to say, who is your favorite or most enjoyable interview?

    Carmine Gallo (19:18.519)

    Yeah. Richard Branson. I have Richard Branson in this audio book too. Richard Branson loves storytelling and of my, and you know, he’s, he’s just a fun guy. He’s really down to earth for being a guy who’s worth billions of dollars and who created Virgin. But he told me the funniest story that I have in this audio book. And that’s what I liked about audio books. I could actually talk to people and you get to hear their voice, not just.

    John Jantsch (19:22.496)

    Okay.

    John Jantsch (19:29.666)

    Mm-hmm.

    John Jantsch (19:38.092)

    Right, right.

    John Jantsch (19:45.536)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Carmine Gallo (19:48.483)

    printed quote. And so Richard Branson told me that, yeah, it’s very important to grab attention through the stories you tell. And he was talking about marketing and all that. And he said that when his, tried to, he was on a hot air balloon and he was trying to break the transatlantic record for crossing the Atlantic in a hot air balloon. And the first time it crashed, it crashed off the coast of Ireland. And it was, you know,

    John Jantsch (19:56.43)

    you

    Carmine Gallo (20:13.858)

    pretty dramatic. And so I’ve got some news footage, archival news footage from the scene. They almost lost their lives. I mean, it was pretty, it was very serious. But then Richard Branson, and only the way Branson can, said, actually it turned out to be a better story than if I had succeeded because we crashed into the Atlantic. And he goes, and if you take a look at the news footage, the last thing you see going down is a big hot air balloon with Virgin on it. And he said,

    John Jantsch (20:17.495)

    Mm.

    Yeah, yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:30.606)

    Sure.

    John Jantsch (20:38.126)

    Virgin.

    Carmine Gallo (20:43.18)

    Carmine, a good story is not always a straight success story. You need tension, you need the mistakes and failures along the way. Brilliant, brilliant, but he was looking at it from a marketing perspective, he said, it was a much better story.

    John Jantsch (20:47.054)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:54.691)

    Yeah.

    John Jantsch (20:59.854)

    Well, Carl, and I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, learn about your work and maybe even find a copy of Viral Voices?

    Carmine Gallo (21:11.618)

    It’s a viral voices will be available on Spotify and any place you get your podcast. And if you’d like to know more about me or simply contact me, if you can remember a good Italian name like Carmine Gallo, I’m very easy to find on the internet. You can go to carminegallo.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. I love that platform as well.

    John Jantsch (21:23.265)

    you

    John Jantsch (21:30.42)

    I remember my parents did not drink much, but if they drank, it was Gallo wine. Awesome. Well, well again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

    Carmine Gallo (21:36.226)

    There’s a lot better wine these days, but I appreciate it. But I like my wine too.

    Carmine Gallo (21:50.092)

    You bet. Thanks, John.

    powered by

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  • Woody Harrelson Admits He Wanted to Punch Matthew McConaughey on True Detective

    Woody Harrelson Admits He Wanted to Punch Matthew McConaughey on True Detective

    Most True Detective fans still consider the first season the best, but it turns out that making the celebrated debut season of the HBO show wasn’t always sunshine and roses for best friends and co-stars Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey. In the latest episode of Ted Danson’s Where Everybody Knows Your Name podcast, Harrelson recalled […]

    The post Woody Harrelson Admits He Wanted to Punch Matthew McConaughey on True Detective appeared first on Den of Geek.

    When National Lampoon’s Animal House opened in 1978, it arrived fully formed and completely unhinged. Directed by John Landis and carried by John Belushi’s fearless performance as Bluto, the film took aim at fraternities, school administrators, and the mythology of college as the “best years of your life.” It was loud, messy, and intentionally disrespectful, the kind of studio comedy that felt like it might spin out of control at any moment. Decades later, Animal House remains a reference point—not just for what ended up on screen, but for the atmosphere surrounding its production, captured in photos that reveal the chaos, camaraderie, and calculation behind the mayhem.

    John Belushi’s Bluto became an instant comedy icon, embodying the film’s anything-goes attitude.
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    Downtime on set, with the cast and crew enjoying the process.
    The toga party cemented Animal House as a cultural blueprint for college excess.
    Belushi’s improvised rallying cry turned nonsense into pure comic inspiration.
    The cast unwinds between takes during the filming of Animal House.
    A rare moment of calm from a cast that would help redefine studio comedy.
    Cast members share a laugh while waiting for the cameras to roll.
    A quiet moment on set as the crew prepares the next shot.
    The ensemble cast relaxes between takes, capturing the loose energy that carried onto the screen.
    A lighthearted moment during filming, with the cast staying loose between scenes.
    Much of Animal House was shot on location in Eugene, Oregon, grounding its absurdity in reality.

    The post 11 Photos on and Behind the Scenes of “Animal House” appeared first on Den of Geek.