Learn more at Duct Tape Marketing about John Jantsch’s The Head Science Behind Effective Marketing.
Catch the Full Episode: Overview On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Michael Aaron Flicker, founder and CEO of ZenoSci Ventures and co-founder ( with Richard Shotton ) of the Consumer Behavior Lab. Michael stock insight from their most recent book,” Hacking the Human Mind: The Behavioral Science Strategies Behind 17 of]…] […]
Learn more at Duct Tape Marketing about John Jantsch’s The Head Science Behind Effective Marketing.
Catch the Full Episode:
Overview
John Jantsch conversations Michael Aaron Flicker, the co-founder of the Consumer Behavior Lab and the co-founder and CEO of ZenoSci Ventures, on this season of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Michael stock insight from their fresh book”, Hacking the Human Mind: The Behavioral Science Strategies Behind 17 of the World’s Best Brands. They discuss how the world’s leading brands use fundamental behavioural science principles to create legendary campaigns, foster brand loyalty, and often knowingly drive memorable marketing.
About the Guest
Michael Aaron Flicker is the founder and CEO of ZenoSci Ventures and co-founder of the Consumer Behavior Lab, an institution dedicated to applying the science of human behaviour to advertising and promotion. Michael, along with distinguished behavioral scientist Richard Shotton, examines how behavioural science can be put to practice to create more effective brands, campaigns, and customer journeys.
- Website: consumerbehaviorlab.com
- Consumer Behavior Lab, Masterclass, Book &
- Podcast: Behavioral Science for Brands
Practical Insight
- Great brands frequently make use of cognitive science, even if they are unaware of the scientific research that underlies their strategies.
- Marketers should focus on concrete, image-rich messaging ( e. g.”, a thousand songs in your pocket” ) rather than abstract claims or feature lists, concrete language is proven to be more memorable and persuasive.
- Specificity and the appearance of effort ( such as” 17 brands, 127 prototypes, etc. ) increase credibility and audience trust.
- Creating peak moments —unexpected, memorable experiences—can dramatically elevate brand loyalty ( e. g., a popsicle hotline at an average hotel ).
- Behavioural science helps decipher why people actually buy, understanding these concepts arms you to style better campaigns and better experiences.
- Marketers must responsibly employ these strategies; understanding human shortcuts requires making informed, no manipulative, decisions.
- The best way to apply these concepts is to examine them: work A/B testing, observe outcomes, and iterate—even small businesses can study and learn.
- Moving beyond gut impulse to evidence-based marketing is how success comes from a mindset that is scientific, calculation, and constant observation.
Great Moments ( with Timestamps )
- 00: 55 – What Does It Mean to” Steal the People Mind”?
Why does the book usually conclude with” so what?” and starts with brands, never academic studies? - 02: 00 – Ground-Level Psychology
Why do owners of large corporations and small businesses have such strong knowledge of customer behavior. - 03: 20 – Debunking the Feature Stack
The Five Men history: Why less is more, and target beat feature overloaded. - The Power of Concrete Messaging at 06 :53
How Apple’s” a thousand songs in your pocket “leverages proven behavioural technology. - 21:21: Why” 17 Brands”?
Precision and the fantasy of effort make figures more reliable and wonderful. - 11: 00 – The Peak-End Rule and Creating Brand Moments
Why does a lollipop line at a typical motel generate glowing reviews? - 13: 32 – How Any Business You Build Peak Events
Any brand may gain wonderful, potent experiences from small, deliberate actions. - 15: 10 – Morals and the” Dark Side” of Behavioral Science
Why marketers may use these perspectives properly and teach consumers. - 17: 20 – How to Begin Behavioral Science Marketing
Adopt a science-based, test-and-learn mindset—not only gut impulse. - Assessment and Testing 18: 52
Why actually small businesses may see, study, and run.
Insights
” Excellent brands use cognitive science principles—sometimes deliberately, often by instinct—to create unforgettable, effective marketing.”
Four days more wonderful than abstract statements, according to the statement” practical, image-rich language.” Show, don’t really inform.”
” Caliber and apparent effort, like a large number of prototypes, build trust and credibility.
” A one, sudden top moment can make an average experience famous in the minds of customers.”
” Cognitive science is about understanding humanity’s organic shortcuts and designing much, not more deceptive, marketing.”
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 00: 00. 365 )
perfect.
John Jantsch ( 00: 02.467 )
Hello and welcome to another season of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. John Jantsch is who I am. My host today is Michael Aaron Flicker. Together with distinguished social scientist Richard Schotton, he is the co-founder and founder of ZenoSci Ventures and the co-founder of the Consumer Behavior Lab. The CBL’s objective is to examine how behavioural science may be applied to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of media and advertising. Michael Aaron and Richard’s text.
is the subject of our discussion now, hacking the human brain, and the behavioral science behind 17 of the world’s top manufacturers. But I go welcomed the show.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 00: 42. 91. )
Thanks so much for having me, John. Excited to be here with you.
John Jantsch ( 00: 44.909 )
But this start, a lot of times I have to begin with the name of a guide. What does it really mean to “hack” the human brain when marketing and branding are concerned?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 00: 55.723 )
Consequently, so many books about cognitive science, about the academics of selling begin with the studies or begin with the, with mystical research. And we said,” What if we turned it around?” And what if we said some of the best brands in the world have insights into human psychology that they’re taking advantage of whether they know it or not. Let’s get those instances, then.
break them down, know what they’re doing, and then discuss some of the science behind it so that you can include trust using it in your own business for your own product. So we wanted to begin with the companies rather than with the scientific research and make sure that we always ended it with, what? What should I do with this information to make use of it in your companies or businesses, then?
John Jantsch ( 01: 48.579 )
You mentioned anything that made me curious, then. said whether they know it or not. I mean, how frequently did you find that businesses were like, what are you talking about? We really, it’s of, that’s why my mother advised you to treat people. Is that not great?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 02: 00.014 )
I think what we find is that great marketing managers, excellent marketing designers have an insight into people philosophy in a way that many of us do not have. But we also found people that are selling hot dogs on the street, those that are running flower stores on the spot market have those same insights because they’re this close to the customer.
They are selling every day and are next to the consumer. And so at both extremes in the vaulted agencies and brands of the world, and at the ground level, when you’re actually selling to people every day, you learn things about human psychology that get put into practice. So it was that our, our, and other beliefs were that the majority of the campaigns and the majority of the brands we looked at understood that they had access to something special.
We don’t think they knew many of the academic studies behind it that proved why it was likely to work.
John Jantsch ( 03: 01.687 )
Yes. So in some ways you were validating something they had already discovered, but didn’t realize it was a secret. So, did you discover any myths or best practices in quotes that you could challenge head on or that you even attempted to challenge head on?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 03: 05.902 )
It’s a nice way to say it.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 03: 20. 375 )
I don’t think we sought, we set out to challenge this, but one of the most common things we see marketers do is they have something they want to sell and then they start stacking the RTBs, the reasons to believe this thing goes faster and is quieter and by the way, it’ll clean your teeth while you do all those other things. We opened the book with a tale about five guys, as you may well know, but we did not intend to refute that.
which is, if you’re an American listener, one of America’s fastest growing, better burger chains. And that founder, Jerry Morrell, started with an insight that he was just walking along a Maryland boardwalk where he sees one company stall with a massive line when everybody else’s stalls were empty. And Thrasher’s fries on the Maryland boardwalk
John Jantsch ( 03: 48.697 )
Mm-hmm.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 04: 16.63 )
had this massive line. And he got to thinking, is this stall that only sells one thing fries, doing something better than everybody else that sold burgers and milkshakes and sodas? That’s one of the founding principles of Five Guys, to be honest. And even to today,$ 1.6 billion franchise, they don’t sell chicken, they don’t sell salads, they don’t sell ice cream, they only sell burgers and fries. Additionally, there are some intriguing academic articles.
studies that back that up.
John Jantsch ( 04: 47.213 )
Yes, yes.
I can think just in my own experience of some kind of local places that only do like fried chicken or something. And they’re just, they’re kind of legendary because, in my opinion, there’s a special something about that experience as well. It’s like, we know why we’re going there. So let’s get into the lab work. mean, you, Richard, and you both have consumer behavior labs. So there is a little bit of laboratory work involved in that, right. in the study. How do you take insights?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 05: 15.55 )
That is correct.
John Jantsch ( 05: 19.006 )
I don’t know, academic behavioral science, and convert them to actual campaigns or product designs.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 05: 26.528 )
I think what we’re always looking for is that there’s an incredible wealth of knowledge happening in the universities that stops short of, so what do we do about it? And so are these valuable insights and observations validated. But then the question is, so what do you do? So we’ve been hoping that someone will say,” Well, we have high performing campaigns in the UK.” They have something called.
John Jantsch ( 05: 38.497 )
Yes, yes.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 05 :55.786 )
the IPA effectiveness database, is campaigns that are proven to drive sales. And that is supported by a lot of data. So you look at famously effective campaigns, and then you look at, what’s the academics that could help understand that. And there’s not always a match, but when you can find a match, you can mine the academics and you can match it to the effective work. We now have a place to start.
But if that match is just kind of a fun uncover, we don’t think that matters. Then we must make sure you can use it to promote a company or a certain brand. And then we feel we have some material that’s worthy of conversation.
John Jantsch ( 06: 39.641 )
Do you want to provide me with a few concrete, specific, and in-depth examples of, I don’t necessarily mean a campaign at all, but we did discover that you could have an impact on this by doing it. Give us an example.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 06: 53. 155 )
So often as marketers, we get this idea that we can just paint in the picture of the mind of somebody, how amazing our brand or our product is, that they’re just going to buy it. And what the data tells us is that may be true, but how you paint it really matters. And Apple, not all of it, especially when Steve Jobs took over the book, was a brand we dissected.
reveals the iPod and he stands up in stage and he holds the iPod up and what he says is it’ll be a thousand songs in your pocket. And up until that point, everyone else was recommending 128 kilobytes of this, 5 gigabytes of storage, and 5 gigabytes of this. And so what we got thinking was, well, what’s the science behind why a thousand songs in your pocket really connects with people?
And the study that we went to was in 1972, Ian Begg, Western Ontario University, recruits 25 students and he reads them 22 word phrases. Some phrases are unattainable, like a rusty engine or flaming forests, while others are simply common fate. And when he asked the group to remember as many terms as they could, they can recall
just about 23 %, or about one in five. But here’s the observation that matters. They can only remember 9 % of the abstract words, like impossible amount, but 36 % of the concrete terms, like white horse. If they can picture it in their minds, that’s a four-fold increase. And so what it teaches us is that great taglines, great phrases,
Create a picture of red bull in your mind. It gives you wings Eminem it melts in your mouth Not in your hand skittles taste the rainbow Maxwell’s house good to the last drop you can picture what I’m saying as you say it and that really can make the same idea much more sticky and much more concrete in the mind of the buyer
John Jantsch ( 09: 09.594 )
Stunning illustration. I was curious when I read the subtitle, did you choose 17 different, was there some sort of like psychological trick being played or hack being played by the number 17?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 09: 21. 606 )
the answer is yes. The answer is yes. And, you’re aware, there are, there are a few things at play here, but Richard and I are really, really interested in the illusion of effort. And the basic psychological principle here is that by getting to a very specific number, it shows a lot more intentionality and a lot more purpose. We just roll over it if we had said 20 of the best brands in the world, we know.
There’s some interesting science behind it, but that’s why. Yes, we’re trying to show specificity. We’re attempting to demonstrate the effort put forth in that. And we know that that has caught more people’s attention because of it.
John Jantsch ( 10: 03. 354 )
Yeah, 3000 % increase as opposed to 3217. Way more believable, right?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 10: 09. 916 )
In our book, we dissect a brand Dyson. And I’m not sure if everyone is aware that this is a well-known vacuum cleaner. James Dyson is the inventor. And when he invents it, his first ad that he puts into the market was 5, 127 prototypes to get to the world’s first bagless vacuum. In his autobiography, he loves it so much. It’s the first line of his autobiography. Look at the work involved in removing the bag from the vacuum. It’s just more believable.
John Jantsch ( 10: 35.508 )
the
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 10: 39. 721 )
than if he had said 5200 prototypes.
John Jantsch ( 10: 44. 056 )
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you, since you did profile and you, actually chose 17 brands, were there any like that really surprised you? mean something that you didn’t expect to do was behaviorally significant or savvy.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 11: 00.714 )
You know, I believe there was one that had a significant impact that I didn’t anticipate. And it’s this concept that comes from Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner economics. 1993 Kahneman and his colleague, Donald Radelmeier come up with a study on colonoscopy patients. And this is the study’s conclusion. The colonoscopy patients are going through an actual procedure and every 60 seconds,
they indicate how painful they are. At the end of the experience, they get two chances to give a retrospective rating. One right after the experience is over, and then another one a month later. And what you discover is that those retrospective ratings do not at all match the overall pain level. In fact, the retrospective ratings, whether it was the hour after or a month later, coincide with two
crucial moments, the highest level of intensity that occurred during the process and the procedure’s conclusion. so Kahneman calls this the peak and rule. So that’s kind of interesting. This is where academic pursuits end. But what does that mean for brands and marketers? A hotel in Los Angeles is known as the Magic Castle Hotel. It was featured in Chip and Dan Heath’s book, The Power of Moments. And the Magic Castle Hotel
has the top 5 percent of all hotels on TripAdvisor in LA. 94 % of their reviews are very good or excellent, better than the Four Seasons in Beverly Hills. What’s surprising about this hotel is that it’s a 1950s motel. Gated decor, mediocre rooms, small swimming pool in the courtyard. But what have they done so well? And what is it that almost every review discusses? They have a popsicle hotline in the pool. And you pick up the call.
John Jantsch ( 12: 44.74 )
Mm.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 12: 59.165 )
day or night, and they will have as many popsicles as you’d like to eat on a silver platter. It’s a peak moment in a average hotel, and that makes everybody love going there, and everybody loves to dial the phone. You don’t have to redo everything, so when you consider how to use what would otherwise be a very difficult to advertise LA motel and make it an all-star in the city.
John Jantsch ( 13: 05.242 )
Yeah,
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 13: 26.736 )
In fact, if you could just create something that everyone would adore, you would have a lot more fans.
John Jantsch ( 13: 32.858 )
Well, and I suspect one of the other key ingredients is the fact that it’s kind of unexpected. Like, who does that? Right.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 13: 37. 98 )
I think you’re right. Yes, I mean, I believe the significance of the peak is that it stands out from the competition. If they had just the softest pillows, somehow you think it might not make as much of a difference, but something fun and social in a courtyard surrounded by all these relatively uninspired rooms, it stands out.
John Jantsch ( 14: 02.298 )
Yes. And I think the beauty of that message, I mean, obviously it’s a hotel, they’ve got a different application, but almost any business could do something like that, couldn’t they? you got to see what these guys did, or something that just really makes someone go.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 14: 16.416 )
I think it can be a customer experience like that. It might also be that a guest from a few weeks ago who was on our podcast was talking about, who travels to this shore town every month and stays at their favorite restaurant there. And the favorite restaurant has flowers on some of the tables.
However, whenever they arrive, he brings the flowers over and places them on the table they were sitting at. And they say, now the table’s ready for you. It’s a small act. It was done on purpose. He’s just using this little vase with three flowers sticking out of it. However, it makes the individual feel special. That’s a peak moment that requires no extra money, requires no grand strategy, but it does require intentionality and consistency. And that’s another example of how anybody can use it.
John Jantsch ( 14: 50. 68 )
Yes.
John Jantsch ( 15: 10.522 )
Okay, let’s explore the dark side, shall we? Understanding these things, what risk do we run in exploiting, manipulating, using them to not necessarily do what’s in the best interest perhaps of the customer?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 15: 13.286 )
Yes.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 15: 30.951 )
So we would say, first of all, that these insights into human behavior and human psychology are facts. And understanding them requires first understanding why we are naturally prone. We have a quote from Kahneman in the beginning of the book, thinking is to humans like swimming is to cats. They can do it, they just prefer not to.
Humans are naturally looking for quick fixes. naturally want to think as little as possible to get to the decisions we need. first, understanding humanity and human psychology is essential to understanding these. Second, we write books for everybody to read so everybody can be aware of them. So we’re educating marketers about how they can use them for positive ends. And we want customers to be aware that these are products.
our natural leanings and inclinations that we got to be aware of. But yes, for sure there is ethics in behavioral science, just like there is ethics in marketing, just like there is ethics in AI. And we have to be aware that we’ve got to use these for ethical and moral purposes.
John Jantsch ( 16: 43.07 )
Years ago, had Dr. Childani on the show wrote influence, know, probably the earliest. Yes, yes. And, and he told me during that interview that he actually wrote the book, so people wouldn’t be exploited. And of course, you know, then, unfortunately, you know, people turned around and used a lot of what was in it, you know, in a way that wasn’t intended necessarily. So if a marketer is listening to this, and they want to hack their own campaign,
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 16: 47. 59 )
a seminal book in our field. Yes.
John Jantsch ( 17: 12.154 )
or customer journeys or whatever it is they’re working on. Do they need to adopt any behaviors or mindsets in particular? mean, where do they start?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 20. 687 )
Yes. So we would say that this is a field, behavioral science is a field that’s really blown out in Europe and in the United Kingdom. It’s much more of a nascent and budding place here in America. So if you’re interested in the approach of behavioral science and how it could prove marketing, lots of material online, lots available, of course, including our book.
However, I believe you must have an interest in the scientific background and the academics to begin. If you’re a marketer that believes everything’s done on hunches or on gut instinct, it’s going to be hard to embrace this type of marketing because this is based on a belief that you can decode human behavior through science and through observation.
It’s not that you can guarantee what’s going to happen, but you can make your campaigns more likely to be successful if you use this science-backed thinking. So we’re boosting the likelihood that your marketing efforts will produce positive results.
John Jantsch ( 18: 33.754 )
However, the flip of that mindset is measurement, mean, understanding, and yes, we have a hunch. If this is our hypothesis based on research, how can we demonstrate that we were correct? And is that become a stumbling block for a lot of folks?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 18: 38.757 )
you
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 18: 52. 269 )
We would say that there’s a massive industry around consumer insights that has its place for some marketers, but for every marketer doing tests and seeing the outcomes, everybody can do. A-B tests are incredibly simple to administer whether you are an online retailer or a web user. If you’re not, we would advocate for observational research.
John Jantsch ( 18: 59.876 )
Mm-hmm.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 19: 19.043 )
do something and see what happens. And you could do it on a small scale, observe the results, and then either continue to innovate or choose to follow this path. So what we would say is, if you’re a small business owner, if you’re a solopreneur, use these tactics and then find ways to test them small and learn from those tests.
John Jantsch ( 19: 42.01 )
Mike Irwin, I appreciate you stopping by to talk about how to hack people’s minds. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you?
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 1985 ): 48. 866
We have our website, the consumerbehaviorlab.com, where you can learn about the book, about the masterclass. And then we also have a podcast that’s been much shorter than John’s called Behavioral Science for Brands that we invite everybody to take a listen to.
John Jantsch ( 20: 06.383 )
Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.
Consumer Behavior Lab ( 20: 11 91 )
Thank you, John.
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