Why Hope Is a Leadership Strategy

John Jantsch ( 00: 01.21 )

Hello and welcome to another season of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. Ernie Ross is my host today. He’s a nationally recognized brand strategy and technology head, chairman of Ross Rethink and father of the Intangence Methodology. His award-winning firm has influenced both the Caribbean and the worlds in terms of brands, social movements, and beliefs. We’re going to speak about his new book, Intangence, How People Connection Creates Value.

between people, companies, and ideas. Ernie, pleasant to the show, therefore.

Ernie Ross ( 00: 34.594 )

Thank you so much, Joan. Thank you for the chance.

John Jantsch ( 00: 37.4 )

Okay, I’ve worked in marketing for a long time, and I’ve learned one thing: it’s difficult to come up with a new term. To get someone, make it, even though if it makes complete sense to you, you also find you have to discuss it a bit and have people know it. It’s similar to forming a brand-new product type.

Thus why’d you do it, Ernie? Why did we have a new term? And then, of course, I’d ask you to discuss what it is, of course. What do you think by in curves?

Ernie Ross ( 10. 808 )

Well, you’re best. It was a problem. to establish a place as your own exclusive property. And immaterial values and the science of human relationship. It is, in essence, the language of people relationship. I like to suggest there are over 7, 000 language spoken in the world today, but the language of human connection is not one that is often.

John Jantsch ( 01: 42.158 )

I suppose confidence is a big portion of it as well, right? I mean, that’s one of those items that a lot of a lot of really established companies have a lot of faith with their business, their their clients. And occasionally, it’s difficult to put. That’s hard to measure. It’s certainly I think people understand it has value, but it’s hard to say, it’s worth X. So, do you think we need to pay attention to these things as well as that they might actually be?

Ernie Ross ( 02: 05.006 )

Sure.

John Jantsch ( 02: 11. 842 )

more tangible than we think.

Ernie Ross ( 02: 13.76 )

Absolutely. Actually, I would go as far as saying trust is the new brand commodity. It’s now difficult to distinguish fact from fallacy in the world we live in. Whether it’s AI generated or it’s being generated by a human being that is manipulating us, that’s one of the imageries on social media. So here’s an example.

John Jantsch ( 02: 19.406 )

Yes, yes.

Ernie Ross ( 02: 39.372 )

that if you take a look at what’s happening either politically or with a product or brand, it is difficult to discern whether that image or even the spokesperson is actually real. It’s very difficult for us to determine that. Or, in reality, if something goes wrong with a brand or a company, it could be within a matter of seconds or a minute, depending on your company’s internal or external image and opinions.

goes viral. so that intangible values are more important than ever in our world. And if there’s anything I wanted your audience to take away today, John, it is the…

cornerstone of the principle of intentions and that is something only has value when it holds meaning to you. What I call derivative meaning in life is unrelated to any physical property or interpersonal relationship. It only has a value because of the meaning you attribute to it. On the other hand, Worth is slightly different. Worth is what the market is willing to pay for it.

Value is determined by meaning. What then determines how well? The extent to which you believe in the value, which takes you through what I call the circle of consumer sentiment back to meaning at the end of the day. That’s what determines our way of life.

John Jantsch ( 04: 01.902 )

Yeah, I want to stay on that point of trust a little bit because I think I read, who’s the group that puts out the trust index every year? It is at an all-time low. And I think as you mentioned, one of the things that’s making it even worse is AI, to the point where I think people are actually now assuming what they’re looking at is not real.

in many instances. And so how do you cut through that? mean, to somebody who is being real, that is very authentic, but now is kind of being lumped in with what the sentiment is, how do you break free from that?

Ernie Ross ( 04: 25. 815 )

of this.

Ernie Ross ( 42-42-48 )

You know, much like any human relationship, we’re measured by more than what we just offer. We’re measured by what we mean to someone. And to appear authentically is to live up to those ideals of your brand as you would in any other human relationship. Here’s an example of that. You would be paying about$ 11.5 million.

for a one minute ad on the Superbowl, transient medium. And there’s an ad I always like to refer to for a particular brand that I would pause after 58 seconds of its television commercial. And I would ask the audience to tell me the story, because it is never mentioned or used in any way.

And the ad is really about the relationship between a father and his child. The entire ad only depicts fathers speaking with their kids. And after 58 seconds, if you had spent$ 11.5 million of your client’s money and said, is what I think you should run, you’d think you were crazy. And finally, in the last two seconds, the logo comes on for Dove Men’s Care. However…

It was more than that. You can’t simply add a logo to the end of an advertisement like that. They launched this movement called That’s Care dot com, which supported a paternity care for men and championed the cause of men as parents around the world. You can imagine which soap I use, by the way, as a single ad.

So it’s really about manifesting and being true rather than just appearing by having an intangible value and placing it in a commercial. In fact, Edelman just put out a report in 2024 that showed trust was the number one factor in influencing consumer decisions and that 85 % of the market

Ernie Ross ( 06: 51.01 )

was willing to pay more premium price for a product that they believed in and would even be forgiving when there was an error in it. Like any human relationship, you would forgive someone you really care about if you felt they were acting in your interest.

John Jantsch ( 07: 07.322 )

I certainly know I’ve done that, paid more and I’m willing to pay more. And I believe that many people actually believe that we are risk averse. And so a lot of cases, I think that if we know we can trust a certain brand or something, we’ll just go back there because the risk, I suppose, of being let down is too high, even if it’s imagined.

Ernie Ross ( 07: 31.0)

Sure.

John Jantsch ( 07: 31.738 )

Talk a little bit about, mean, obviously, as AI is replacing humans, or at least that’s way it’s being pitched in a lot of cases, how do we make sure that we are nurturing human connections as people are feeling more and more distance from you?

Ernie Ross ( 07: 49.868 )

You’re absolutely right. While I’m not a critic of AI, I think it has a phenomenal impact on how we’re going to develop as a species. But let’s see what I want to make of it. Artificial intelligence is not artificial intelligence. It may mimic human emotions, but it is unable to actually experience and experience them. It cannot encounter love or grief or hate or anger or fear.

So that’s what’s unique about us. If you gave me a piece of art, John, and I said,” Wow, John, this is incredible, I’m gonna hang it on my wall,” and you said,” Well, it was created by artificial intelligence,” it would immediately lose any value for me, or a piece of music for that matter. Those are expressions of our humanity, that’s what makes us real. Nothing else can replicate that. So that artificial intelligence is limited by the fact that it is not human.

cannot encounter those human emotions. And that’s the role and space we will always have, in my opinion.

John Jantsch ( 08: 54.446 )

I totally concur with you, but let me back up on that one a little bit. If I think a piece of art is still a piece of art, why should it matter how it was created?

Ernie Ross ( 08: 58.222 )

Sure.

Ernie Ross ( 09: 06.818 )

Because as much as though, if you had to show the whole intangible space, if there were Picasso that he had created, but he had never signed it, it would not be authentic, right? Its intangible value would not be the same. So that it is determined by the ownership of an individual that has created that piece. Here’s an illustration. The banana and the duct tape are two things you might have heard of.

John Jantsch ( 09: 14.394 )

Sure.

Ernie Ross ( 09: 32. 206 )

that was created at this station. It sold recently for$ 2 million. Or John Cage, who wrote this piece in four minutes, sixteen seconds, that no one else could play. Those are examples of what is authenticating and giving it value and validating it is our regard for the person who is originating the piece. However, if it’s done by AI,

John Jantsch ( 09: 32.881 )

yes, yeah, of course I did.

Ernie Ross ( 09: 58.306 )

then it could be duplicated and replicated a hundred times over. It was created by AI, not by John. You are unique in the world. So when you create a piece, is unique to its own individual that would ever exist on this planet ever again. And that’s what makes us unique, and that’s what makes the artwork made by humans unique.

John Jantsch ( 10: 19.61 )

You

started off by, or you gave an example of a Dove and Men’s Care product, and you actually kind of put the word”” in the story they were bringing up. And I want to go back to that a little bit because I think one of the most powerful ways you can make connection is with stories. And I think a lot of marketers have woken up to that idea, certainly the last five, 10 years. What part do you believe authentic storytelling and storytelling can play?

in communicating what a brand stands for.

Ernie Ross ( 10: 54. 356 )

Absolutely. Telling an emotionally compelling story, any narrative of that kind, makes it memorable. It authentically connects you to your… We are essentially sentient beings as humans. Most of our decisions are being made by the way we feel, not by logic as much as we’d like to think it is. And we are captivated by the stories. And it is essence of who we are.

It is what we’re created of memories, memories that are made of stories. Thus, providing a brand implies evoking an intangible value that is woven together by telling an emotionally compelling tale. While that is happening, that will certainly be a point of resonance once the shared intangible value has been embodied in that particular offering. Here’s an illustration. If you and I were going into the beverage industry,

And I said, John, I’ve done everything with this product. I don’t believe it’s going to do remarkably well. It’s not particularly attractive in its colors. Black.

It has no nutritional value whatsoever. I’m not going to sell it in flavor. However, I’m going to promise you 1.9 billion units every day around the world. You think that’s crazy. But Coca-Cola does exactly that. And it’s woven together by these really emotionally compelling stories. They don’t sell it in flavor, taste, the feeling, open happiness, real magic, all themes over the last 10 years. So if a product, a beverage, etc.

that has no nutritional value, that contains 38 grams of sugar, can be sold as an embodiment of the satisfaction for the craving of human connection. I believe the best evidence of the fact is when you weave together tree, more shake-upelling stories.

John Jantsch ( 12: 38.234 )

Okay, well again, I agree with you, but I’m going to push back on another. You know, they’re selling poison under that, don’t you think? And so are they really manipulating people to buy a product that is really not good for them? That’s probably using what you’re talking about, you know, for evil rather than for good, I would say.

Ernie Ross ( 12: 59.982 )

Very good, absolute point. The United Nations established University of Peace, and I do recall giving a speech at the Global Happiness Summit right here in Costa Rica. And I gave a talk on Coca-Cola and everybody in the room was stirring and said, why are you doing that? I replied,” No, don’t shoot the messenger.” They own the space on happiness. Now, who determines whether it’s manipulative or positive is based upon the lens you’re filtering it through. I concur with you.

John Jantsch ( 13: 17.439 )

the

Ernie Ross ( 13: 28.706 )

But they’re using techniques and devices that are so compelling that’s effective. Maybe those of us who are pushing climate change or operating an NGO could learn from some of these techniques. Because the outcome ultimately determines it. But if we can employ and deploy some of those techniques and devices that those big brands are using, maybe we would push the needle forward a little bit in terms of the

the more noble goals and initiatives that we have. So you’re absolutely right. It’s more about how are they achieving it than whether it’s being done for greater good.

John Jantsch ( 14:00.42 )

Yeah.

John Jantsch ( 14: 06.648 )

Yes. So if I’m a company not of a Coca-Cola size by any means that has been selling features and benefits and I now think, hey, we need to change and we need to connect and we need to discover our purpose so that we can actually tell that authentic story. Where do you help people start?

Ernie Ross ( 14: 30. 84)

There are three schools of thought that make up the tangents. The first is referred to as the “pillars of purpose.” It’s an introspective process that asks the most three probing questions you can ask of a brand or of yourself. Question one is who am I? Question two: Who am I to you? Question two would be what is my purpose? What do I do for you to accomplish more? And the last question is how will I be remembered?

What lingers with you after interaction, whether you see the packaging or an ad that was run, what stays with you? And those three are like signsposts that point you in the direction of what I refer to as the universal truth. Something that is your brand ethos that is universally acceptable. As an illustration, if you were a brand of water, it might not be possible for anyone in the world to ever become thirsty. So it would…

That would be building the brand architecture in an emotional space. Take note that it’s not what it is; it’s who I am. What is my purpose? How will I be remembered? And then the second school of thought is what is called currency of conversation. How do you make the message viral? How do you spread the word about something? And that lands on three principles. The message must be remembered. Do I have a high regard from where I’m hearing or it’s coming from? And does it resonate with me at a deeply fundamental level?

The science of human connection would be the last school of thought. What are the methods and tools you’re using to create that connection based on a purpose, passion, or do you develop that passion by adopting a polyphonic approach to the marketplace polyphony?

coming from a musical term where an instrument can play more than one note at the same time. In much the same way, you need to keep track of what’s happening with changing attitudes, consumer behavior, and other things so that you can travel ahead of your headlights so that you can determine the response you need to have in your brand storytelling.

John Jantsch ( 16: 32.515 )

You work in some different markets outside of the US. Do you believe that there are cultural differences in how people market products and how people establish relationships with brands?

Ernie Ross ( 16: 45.62 )

Absolutely, absolutely. Each market has its own dynamics and so on, but there is, however, that space that I call the universal truth, where it’s all expansive, regardless of what market. But at the end of the day, reality is really a perspective. A very unusual object reinforces this as you enter our office.

It looks like what appears to be a mirror with a crack in it and there’s a broom perched against it. Many people enter the building and ask,” Why do you have this object here?” And I said, you tell me. And they look at it and they talk about maybe the frailty of life. I then stated that it is not exactly what it appears to be. And the.

It was created by, and it is an installation created by an Argentine artist, Leandro Ehrlich. And it’s actually an illusion. He’s just created an open space, put a frame of metal running across it diagonally, and makes it look like a crack. He has placed a front-facing and back-back broom. Now you can see right through this object, John, you don’t see your own reflection. However, when I first received it, nine out of ten people stood in front of it, including myself.

and see a mirror. And it’s based upon the whole principle, know, that we don’t see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are. And it reinforces the notion that we must question this interpretation of reality. So to your point about what works in what part of the world, it’s about that point. having the ability to question the audience’s perception of reality. What is their version of this reality before you begin to authentically connect and do it?

John Jantsch ( 18: 21.774 )

You promote intangibility. What do you kind of hope for maybe the wider world of marketing leadership, human behavior for this idea to catch on?

Ernie Ross ( 18: 33. 868 )

For that I’ll go to the last chapter and I just want to read a little bit of it for you, if I may. This is really to me key to what I would love everybody to take away from it. What could have possibly existed before anything else, as it reads, if nothing from nothing is an unquestionable law of physics? In the beginning, everything was entirely intangible.

This provides a fascinating understanding of the origin of what. And throughout the book I demonstrate how real and powerful the world of intangibility is. As an example, if you took all the companies traded in the S &amp, P 500, the value of it is about$ 28 trillion. And you wouldn’t even receive 20 % of the physical asset if you sold it.

of the$ 28 trillion. Therefore, it’s all intangible assets and has an intangible meaning. So the world exists. What is one of the world’s largest transportation companies? … How many cars do they own? What is one of the largest retail companies in the world? It’s Amazon. How much mortar and stone do they actually have? And if you looked at all the major companies in the world, each one, from Apple to Samsung, you would see it all.

Microsoft or to Coca-Cola. They have their accounting firms’ charts that show that their intangible value is greater than the value of their tangible value. If I sold you the Coca-Cola company today and I give you all the factories and all the buildings and I kept the name, I would be the one to win the game. So it’s an intangible space. So that’s what I want to take away from. To recognize, if you took this into a…

If you ask the question,” How did we actually begin?,” in a spiritual realm, if you will. How did this all begin? Now you’ll get theories from scientists to religious people, but if we can agree on one principle, that is all intangible. A magician’s little cartoon that I have in the book of a magician pulling things out of a hat says they can’t be weighed, held, or shipped, but it does. It’s intangible.

Ernie Ross ( 20: 52. 502 )

So essentially that’s what I’d like to think we are at the end of the day.

John Jantsch ( 20: 57.602 )

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there a place where you would invite people to connect with you, learn about your work, and most importantly, connect with your book?

Ernie Ross ( 21: 08.408 )

Sure, it’s intangines.com. It is written as I-N-T-A-N-G-I-E-N-C dot com. That’s the website. The book can be purchased from various retailers, including Amazon, Walmart, Target, Indigo, and others. There are courses that are taught. There’s a four to five minute master class. Additionally, there is a three-day program that the United Nations Established University for Peace has approved. And in Europe through the…

Ecole des Ponds, a business school. So the work has been, the body of work has been given great assessment and testimonials by Harvard professors and so on, but more importantly, it’s the number of people around the world, over 10, 000, that have participated in the program. I’m humbled by the responses we’ve got, and I’m grateful to you, John, for giving me yet another platform to ventilate the views.

John Jantsch ( 22: 06. 202 )

You bet, and we’ll have a, for those of you listening, we’ll have a link to Intangence in the show notes as well. So, Ernie, once more, I appreciate you stopping by, and perhaps we’ll meet up there in Costa Rica one day. All right, take care.

Ernie Ross ( 22: 18.946 )

John, I’m excited about that. I’ll be your guide for sure. Thank you so much. Cheers.